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Thompson M1928A2 (?)


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Hello everyone! I have a question about the so-called model "М1928А2", I have not found any information about this, except for the data in this table.

 

 

 

4lZcieQeBt4.jpg?size=722x1080&quality=96

 

 

Apparently we are talking about the late M1928A1 models with an iron sight and a smooth barrel. But the designation М1928А2 is not mentioned anywhere else .. Maybe this is an internal AOC term. Should we take this seriously?

 

Who knows, can you share information?

 

Thanks!

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NOTES ON AUTO ORDNANCE, THE THOMPSON SUBMACHINE GUN, SECOND EDITION, was published in 1989. Will all due respect to the authors, much more accurate information has been published in the ensuing years (by one of the authors and others). Yes, there is some information in that publication that is still noteworthy, but it is not a source cited very often for those who perform original research and write about the Thompson submachine gun.

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Sounds like the fielded 1928A1s they've used during some of the early parts of the American involvement of the war. With no Lyman battle sight and no cutts comp, but still finned barrel. They would just have the battle sights like the M1 and M1A1 have. I am pretty sure they were still called the M1928A1 just because they only dropped 2 parts from it to quicken production.
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That table came from a book I wrote many years ago with my co author Jim Bannan. Jim had been an armourer for the

Marines during WWII. The term A2 was something he added into the book as a term he used to differentiate between the Lyman

finned barrel design and the later smooth barrel L sight type of the 1928A1(?).

 

Since that time I have not seen it specified as an official term in any manual, military repair etc.

 

So it could be a term Jim used for himself. But like all research as time moves on we change thoughts and terms.

 

Tracie Hill

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Victor,
In my collection I have three Thompsons, all deactivated due to my location, marked US Model of 1928A1.
The first has both the finned barrel and the Lyman sight.

162650 & AO L Drum.JPG

This example was part of an order placed by Britain during the initial ‘cash and carry’ period of ‘MODEL OF 1928’ Thompsons. This order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns was placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program in March 1941. I am grateful to Tom Davis's book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story for this information. Savage was still using an early roll stamp for the ‘MODEL OF 1928’ markings at the time, but under the Lend Lease Act, the US government assumed ownership of the guns that were supplied to foreign armed forces. The Act stated that the guns had to be marked as U.S. Property, so, the "US" and "A1" were retrospectively added by hand stamping them to the 42,000 guns, (including 162659), from this order.

162650 SN.JPG

It is also roll marked 'Tommy Gun' on the top of the receiver, some Thompsons 1928A1's were marked as such in 1941, in order to protect the copy right of the name.
162650 Bullet & Tommy Gun.JPG

The second one has a finned barrel and a Lyman battle sight marked with address.
No.14 body .JPG

14 A-O Bullet Logo & 1st Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

This is an interesting Thompson, as the serial numbers have been deliberately removed, and it is known that this was done on weapons supplied to and used by the IRA, to prevent traceability of the weapon, it also has an improvised fire selector lever. Its Blish-Lock piece in the bolt has also had its ‘ears’ removed, indicating it onced served with commonwealth forces.

No.14 selectors & model.JPG

The third example has a smooth barrel and a battle sight, the version without the Lyman address.

S 541933 LS XX Mag.JPG

541933 Savage Bullet Logo & 2nd Lyman L Sight marking.JPG
Its horizontal foregrip has been checked to add grip when being used in jungle conditions. This modification indicates it was used in the ‘Far East’, possibly seeing service in the ‘Burma Campaign’.

541933 Foregrip.JPG

It also has an early ‘REME’ workshop modified stock, with two screws added for reinforcement against cracking. This was a typical Commonwealth modification introduced prior to the ‘cross bolt’ upgrade. This modification was announced in the British Army Council notifications, (being 1909 from 1942), "Thompson M/C Carbine - modification to butt by inserting two wood screws".

541933 Stock with Reinforce Screws.JPG

All three examples are marked 1928A1 however, throughout the war, the Thompson underwent design changes that would make it faster and cheaper to produce.

The first change eliminated the finely machined Lyman rear sight. I believe that this modification was the result of an Ordnance Committee meeting held in December of 1941. At this meeting, it was suggested that a much simpler ‘L’ type battle sight replace the Lyman adjustable rear sight. It was agreed the new sight was better suited for a military application and it helped expedite production, so, from early 1942, 1928A1s’ were produced with the Lyman fixed aperture rear ‘L’ sight.

The U.S. Ordnance Department also decided the iconic radial cooling fins on the barrel could be eliminated, again to increase the weapon’s production. I learned from Doug Richardsons book The Thompson Submachine Gun Models 2nd Edition, that "this decision followed trials showing that the open bolt feature of the Thompson design, provided enough cooling effect to avert most premature ‘cook-off’ of cartridges. There was also evidence that a solid barrel dissipates heat faster by conducting through the extra metal, than the fins did by air convection. The additional up-front weight of the non-finned barrel improved gun stability during firing. This fact provides the argument that the elimination of the fins was an improvement".

Victor, I hope this information is of some assistance to you


Stay safe
Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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A point of clarification with respect to the "Tommy Gun" marking. It was done by A.O.C. for trademark, not copyright purposes.

 

A technical point, as well as conduction and convection, heat dissipates via radiation. The increased surface area of a finned barrel vis a vis a smooth barrel provides for more heat radiation than does a smooth barrel. E.g., the finned radiators used in connection with internal combustion engine equipped vehicles, the finned heat sinks used on many electronic devices.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well. MP

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A point of clarification with respect to the "Tommy Gun" marking. It was done by A.O.C. for trademark, not copyright purposes.

 

A technical point, as well as conduction and convection, heat dissipates via radiation. The increased surface area of a finned barrel vis a vis a smooth barrel provides for more heat radiation than does a smooth barrel. E.g., the finned radiators used in connection with internal combustion engine equipped vehicles, the finned heat sinks used on many electronic devices.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well. MP

Tom

Thanks for the correction on trademark/ copyright and lesson in science, not my strong point... I will amend my notes accordingly.

 

Stay safe

Richard

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That table came from a book I wrote many years ago with my co author Jim Bannan. Jim had been an armourer for the

Marines during WWII. The term A2 was something he added into the book as a term he used to differentiate between the Lyman

finned barrel design and the later smooth barrel L sight type of the 1928A1(?).

 

Since that time I have not seen it specified as an official term in any manual, military repair etc.

 

So it could be a term Jim used for himself. But like all research as time moves on we change thoughts and terms.

 

Tracie Hill

 

Thank you very much! This is a great place (the MGB forum) where you can easily find out an interesting question and get an answer from people like you! I think the question about the model "М1928А2" can be closed!

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Victor,

In my colelction I have three Thompsons, all deactivated due to my location, marked US Model of 1928A1.

The first has both the finned barrel and the Lyman sight.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 & AO L Drum.JPG

 

This example was part of an order placed by Britain during the initial ‘cash and carry’ period of ‘MODEL OF 1928’ Thompsons. This order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns was placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program in March 1941. I am grateful to Tom Davis's book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story for this information. Savage was still using an early roll stamp for the ‘MODEL OF 1928’ markings at the time, but under the Lend Lease Act, the US government assumed ownership of the guns that were supplied to foreign armed forces. The Act stated that the guns had to be marked as U.S. Property, so, the "US" and "A1" were retrospectively added by hand stamping them to the 42,000 guns, (including 162659), from this order.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 SN.JPG

 

It is also roll marked 'Tommy Gun' on the top of the receiver, some Thompsons 1928A1's were marked as such in 1941, in order to protect the copy right of the name.

attachicon.gif 162650 Bullet & Tommy Gun.JPG

 

The second one has a finned barrel and a Lyman battle sight marked with address.

attachicon.gif No.14 body .JPG

 

attachicon.gif 14 A-O Bullet Logo & 1st Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

 

This is an interesting Thompson, as the serial numbers have been deliberately removed, and it is known that this was done on weapons supplied to and used by the IRA, to prevent traceability of the weapon, it also has an improvised fire selector lever. Its Blish-Lock piece in the bolt has also had its ‘ears’ removed, indicating it onced served with commonwealth forces.

 

attachicon.gif No.14 selectors & model.JPG

 

The third example has a smooth barrel and a battle sight, the version without the Lyman address.

 

attachicon.gif S 541933 LS XX Mag.JPG

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Savage Bullet Logo & 2nd Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

Its horizontal foregrip has been checked to add grip when being used in jungle conditions. This modification indicates it was used in the ‘Far East’, possibly seeing service in the ‘Burma Campaign’.

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Foregrip.JPG

 

It also has an early ‘REME’ workshop modified stock, with two screws added for reinforcement against cracking. This was a typical Commonwealth modification introduced prior to the ‘cross bolt’ upgrade. This modification was announced in the British Army Council notifications, (being 1909 from 1942), "Thompson M/C Carbine - modification to butt by inserting two wood screws".

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Stock with Reinforce Screws.JPG

 

All three examples are marked 1928A1 however, throughout the war, the Thompson underwent design changes that would make it faster and cheaper to produce.

 

The first change eliminated the finely machined Lyman rear sight. I believe that this modification was the result of an Ordnance Committee meeting held in December of 1941. At this meeting, it was suggested that a much simpler ‘L’ type battle sight replace the Lyman adjustable rear sight. It was agreed the new sight was better suited for a military application and it helped expedite production, so, from early 1942, 1928A1s’ were produced with the Lyman fixed aperture rear ‘L’ sight.

 

The U.S. Ordnance Department also decided the iconic radial cooling fins on the barrel could be eliminated, again to increase the weapon’s production. I learned from Doug Richardsons book The Thompson Submachine Gun Models 2nd Edition, that "this decision followed trials showing that the open bolt feature of the Thompson design, provided enough cooling effect to avert most premature ‘cook-off’ of cartridges. There was also evidence that a solid barrel dissipates heat faster by conducting through the extra metal, than the fins did by air convection. The additional up-front weight of the non-finned barrel improved gun stability during firing. This fact provides the argument that the elimination of the fins was an improvement".

 

Victor, I hope this information is of some assistance to you

 

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

Richard, I'm glad to hear from you!

Thank you for your detailed answer about the Model M1928 / M1928A1.

One clarification did the IRA buy the Thompsons after WWII?

Thanks !

Edited by allweaponsww2
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Victor,

In my colelction I have three Thompsons, all deactivated due to my location, marked US Model of 1928A1.

The first has both the finned barrel and the Lyman sight.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 & AO L Drum.JPG

 

This example was part of an order placed by Britain during the initial ‘cash and carry’ period of ‘MODEL OF 1928’ Thompsons. This order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns was placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program in March 1941. I am grateful to Tom Davis's book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story for this information. Savage was still using an early roll stamp for the ‘MODEL OF 1928’ markings at the time, but under the Lend Lease Act, the US government assumed ownership of the guns that were supplied to foreign armed forces. The Act stated that the guns had to be marked as U.S. Property, so, the "US" and "A1" were retrospectively added by hand stamping them to the 42,000 guns, (including 162659), from this order.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 SN.JPG

 

It is also roll marked 'Tommy Gun' on the top of the receiver, some Thompsons 1928A1's were marked as such in 1941, in order to protect the copy right of the name.

attachicon.gif 162650 Bullet & Tommy Gun.JPG

 

The second one has a finned barrel and a Lyman battle sight marked with address.

attachicon.gif No.14 body .JPG

 

attachicon.gif 14 A-O Bullet Logo & 1st Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

 

This is an interesting Thompson, as the serial numbers have been deliberately removed, and it is known that this was done on weapons supplied to and used by the IRA, to prevent traceability of the weapon, it also has an improvised fire selector lever. Its Blish-Lock piece in the bolt has also had its ‘ears’ removed, indicating it onced served with commonwealth forces.

 

attachicon.gif No.14 selectors & model.JPG

 

The third example has a smooth barrel and a battle sight, the version without the Lyman address.

 

attachicon.gif S 541933 LS XX Mag.JPG

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Savage Bullet Logo & 2nd Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

Its horizontal foregrip has been checked to add grip when being used in jungle conditions. This modification indicates it was used in the ‘Far East’, possibly seeing service in the ‘Burma Campaign’.

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Foregrip.JPG

 

It also has an early ‘REME’ workshop modified stock, with two screws added for reinforcement against cracking. This was a typical Commonwealth modification introduced prior to the ‘cross bolt’ upgrade. This modification was announced in the British Army Council notifications, (being 1909 from 1942), "Thompson M/C Carbine - modification to butt by inserting two wood screws".

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Stock with Reinforce Screws.JPG

 

All three examples are marked 1928A1 however, throughout the war, the Thompson underwent design changes that would make it faster and cheaper to produce.

 

The first change eliminated the finely machined Lyman rear sight. I believe that this modification was the result of an Ordnance Committee meeting held in December of 1941. At this meeting, it was suggested that a much simpler ‘L’ type battle sight replace the Lyman adjustable rear sight. It was agreed the new sight was better suited for a military application and it helped expedite production, so, from early 1942, 1928A1s’ were produced with the Lyman fixed aperture rear ‘L’ sight.

 

The U.S. Ordnance Department also decided the iconic radial cooling fins on the barrel could be eliminated, again to increase the weapon’s production. I learned from Doug Richardsons book The Thompson Submachine Gun Models 2nd Edition, that "this decision followed trials showing that the open bolt feature of the Thompson design, provided enough cooling effect to avert most premature ‘cook-off’ of cartridges. There was also evidence that a solid barrel dissipates heat faster by conducting through the extra metal, than the fins did by air convection. The additional up-front weight of the non-finned barrel improved gun stability during firing. This fact provides the argument that the elimination of the fins was an improvement".

 

Victor, I hope this information is of some assistance to you

 

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

 

Excellent 1928A1 overview Richard.

Your detail as ever is second to none

 

JD

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Victor,

In my colelction I have three Thompsons, all deactivated due to my location, marked US Model of 1928A1.

The first has both the finned barrel and the Lyman sight.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 & AO L Drum.JPG

 

This example was part of an order placed by Britain during the initial ‘cash and carry’ period of ‘MODEL OF 1928’ Thompsons. This order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns was placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program in March 1941. I am grateful to Tom Davis's book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story for this information. Savage was still using an early roll stamp for the ‘MODEL OF 1928’ markings at the time, but under the Lend Lease Act, the US government assumed ownership of the guns that were supplied to foreign armed forces. The Act stated that the guns had to be marked as U.S. Property, so, the "US" and "A1" were retrospectively added by hand stamping them to the 42,000 guns, (including 162659), from this order.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 SN.JPG

 

It is also roll marked 'Tommy Gun' on the top of the receiver, some Thompsons 1928A1's were marked as such in 1941, in order to protect the copy right of the name.

attachicon.gif 162650 Bullet & Tommy Gun.JPG

 

The second one has a finned barrel and a Lyman battle sight marked with address.

attachicon.gif No.14 body .JPG

 

attachicon.gif 14 A-O Bullet Logo & 1st Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

 

This is an interesting Thompson, as the serial numbers have been deliberately removed, and it is known that this was done on weapons supplied to and used by the IRA, to prevent traceability of the weapon, it also has an improvised fire selector lever. Its Blish-Lock piece in the bolt has also had its ‘ears’ removed, indicating it onced served with commonwealth forces.

 

attachicon.gif No.14 selectors & model.JPG

 

The third example has a smooth barrel and a battle sight, the version without the Lyman address.

 

attachicon.gif S 541933 LS XX Mag.JPG

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Savage Bullet Logo & 2nd Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

Its horizontal foregrip has been checked to add grip when being used in jungle conditions. This modification indicates it was used in the ‘Far East’, possibly seeing service in the ‘Burma Campaign’.

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Foregrip.JPG

 

It also has an early ‘REME’ workshop modified stock, with two screws added for reinforcement against cracking. This was a typical Commonwealth modification introduced prior to the ‘cross bolt’ upgrade. This modification was announced in the British Army Council notifications, (being 1909 from 1942), "Thompson M/C Carbine - modification to butt by inserting two wood screws".

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Stock with Reinforce Screws.JPG

 

All three examples are marked 1928A1 however, throughout the war, the Thompson underwent design changes that would make it faster and cheaper to produce.

 

The first change eliminated the finely machined Lyman rear sight. I believe that this modification was the result of an Ordnance Committee meeting held in December of 1941. At this meeting, it was suggested that a much simpler ‘L’ type battle sight replace the Lyman adjustable rear sight. It was agreed the new sight was better suited for a military application and it helped expedite production, so, from early 1942, 1928A1s’ were produced with the Lyman fixed aperture rear ‘L’ sight.

 

The U.S. Ordnance Department also decided the iconic radial cooling fins on the barrel could be eliminated, again to increase the weapon’s production. I learned from Doug Richardsons book The Thompson Submachine Gun Models 2nd Edition, that "this decision followed trials showing that the open bolt feature of the Thompson design, provided enough cooling effect to avert most premature ‘cook-off’ of cartridges. There was also evidence that a solid barrel dissipates heat faster by conducting through the extra metal, than the fins did by air convection. The additional up-front weight of the non-finned barrel improved gun stability during firing. This fact provides the argument that the elimination of the fins was an improvement".

 

Victor, I hope this information is of some assistance to you

 

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

Richard, I'm glad to hear from you!

Thank you for your detailed answer about the Model M1928 / M1928A1.

One clarification did the IRA buy the Thompsons after WWII?

 

Thanks !

Victor it is always a pleasure.
The IRA always had good networks to supply weapons from the USA and in the 1940's and 1950's, it was not unknown for them to raid British camps or Police stations to steal weapons, until the security on such locations was improved from experience. In the 1970's and 1980's Libya used to supply more modern weapsons.
Several recovered IRA Thompsons were sold by H.M. Government to a film prop company in the 1970s. In turn, these were sold onto the civilian market in the 1990s. The person from whom I bought mine from in 2012, informed me he had bought it from Batby & Co, suppliers of weapons to the TV and film industry in London, and that it was a former IRA Thompson.
During the troubles, it was not only the IRA that used them, the loyalists also acquired and used Thompsons. In the early summer of 1974 Combat magazine carried reports of a Loyalist raid, which alleged, due to information received from the Security Forces, a unit of the Mid-Ulster Volunteers seized a quantity of weapons from what is believed to have been an IRA arms dump. The Unit captured a Thompson submachine gun, two revolvers and a quantity of ammunition and explosive materials. Before leaving the ‘dump’ the loyalists laid a booby-trap mine, which later exploded causing injury to an IRA quartermaster. In a report to Brigade Staff, the Officer Commanding the 3rd (Mid-Ulster) Battalion said that this had been the third successful arms seizure in the Tyrone area within the past month” .
In another report from the same source, an Ulster Volunteer Force member in the late 1960’s, Gusty Spence, stated “I was always pestering this man for firearms and I bought the first Thompson submachine gun that was ever seen on the Shankill Road. I paid thirty quid for it and twenty rounds of ammunition. A .45 Webley pistol cost a fiver, which was big enough money in those days for working men”.
Hundreds of the Model of 1921 guns, originating from the SS East Side shipment have been seized by Security forces in Northern Ireland, the Garda in the Irish Republic and the British police in Britain, many of these were destroyed under the law. Some have had legible serial numbers, while others have had their numbers defaced and no doubt some guns remain in forgotten concealed arms caches to this day. Between 1922 and 2001, the Royal Ulster Constabulary reported 61 Thompson guns seized in arms finds. In 1983, several captured IRA guns were auctioned off by the British Government, through the Weller and Dufty auction house, these included two US Model of 1928A1’s, six Model of 1921’s with the serial numbers erased and one Model of 1921 which retained its serial number, 873.
Maria McGuire was an IRA volunteer, post 1969, who recorded her experiences in the book, “To Take Arms, A Year in the Provisional IRA” published in 1973, which mentions the old Thompsons resurfacing.
“Most of the weapons were World War II military rifles such as the M1 carbine, the heavy Garand semi-automatic rifle (it weighs 12 pounds), bolt action Springfield’s and British Lee-Enfield’s……. The rest were assorted pistols of vastly differing types and calibres, plus a few submachine guns, mostly the famous Thompsons…. most IRA men refer to them as ‘The Thompson’, though some of the younger ones also called them ‘rattleboxes’. They do make an incredible din…. Hundreds of them appear to have been smuggled into the country at around that time, (1921), and they rapidly became as much a part of the IRA legend, as the trench coat.
Many of the Irish Thompsons have spent more time under the ground than over it…. I remember a wizened old man came into Kevin Street and produced various parts of a rusty Thompson gun out of a brown paper parcel ‘tis a present form the boys in Cork’ he said. Many IRA men will tell you that the Thompson is their favourite weapon….one of the major faults with the Thompson is that unless it is kept spotlessly clean, (often difficult in combat conditions), it’s prone to jamming; another is that it needs a strong man to handle it, because its barrel should make an imaginary figure of eight around the target; a third is that it has a relatively low velocity and there has been instances in the North of its heavy .45 bullets failing to pierce soldier’s flak jackets”.
As you can see I read a lot, maybe too much.
Stay safe
Richard
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Victor,

In my colelction I have three Thompsons, all deactivated due to my location, marked US Model of 1928A1.

The first has both the finned barrel and the Lyman sight.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 & AO L Drum.JPG

 

This example was part of an order placed by Britain during the initial ‘cash and carry’ period of ‘MODEL OF 1928’ Thompsons. This order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns was placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program in March 1941. I am grateful to Tom Davis's book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story for this information. Savage was still using an early roll stamp for the ‘MODEL OF 1928’ markings at the time, but under the Lend Lease Act, the US government assumed ownership of the guns that were supplied to foreign armed forces. The Act stated that the guns had to be marked as U.S. Property, so, the "US" and "A1" were retrospectively added by hand stamping them to the 42,000 guns, (including 162659), from this order.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 SN.JPG

 

It is also roll marked 'Tommy Gun' on the top of the receiver, some Thompsons 1928A1's were marked as such in 1941, in order to protect the copy right of the name.

attachicon.gif 162650 Bullet & Tommy Gun.JPG

 

The second one has a finned barrel and a Lyman battle sight marked with address.

attachicon.gif No.14 body .JPG

 

attachicon.gif 14 A-O Bullet Logo & 1st Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

 

This is an interesting Thompson, as the serial numbers have been deliberately removed, and it is known that this was done on weapons supplied to and used by the IRA, to prevent traceability of the weapon, it also has an improvised fire selector lever. Its Blish-Lock piece in the bolt has also had its ‘ears’ removed, indicating it onced served with commonwealth forces.

 

attachicon.gif No.14 selectors & model.JPG

 

The third example has a smooth barrel and a battle sight, the version without the Lyman address.

 

attachicon.gif S 541933 LS XX Mag.JPG

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Savage Bullet Logo & 2nd Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

Its horizontal foregrip has been checked to add grip when being used in jungle conditions. This modification indicates it was used in the ‘Far East’, possibly seeing service in the ‘Burma Campaign’.

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Foregrip.JPG

 

It also has an early ‘REME’ workshop modified stock, with two screws added for reinforcement against cracking. This was a typical Commonwealth modification introduced prior to the ‘cross bolt’ upgrade. This modification was announced in the British Army Council notifications, (being 1909 from 1942), "Thompson M/C Carbine - modification to butt by inserting two wood screws".

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Stock with Reinforce Screws.JPG

 

All three examples are marked 1928A1 however, throughout the war, the Thompson underwent design changes that would make it faster and cheaper to produce.

 

The first change eliminated the finely machined Lyman rear sight. I believe that this modification was the result of an Ordnance Committee meeting held in December of 1941. At this meeting, it was suggested that a much simpler ‘L’ type battle sight replace the Lyman adjustable rear sight. It was agreed the new sight was better suited for a military application and it helped expedite production, so, from early 1942, 1928A1s’ were produced with the Lyman fixed aperture rear ‘L’ sight.

 

The U.S. Ordnance Department also decided the iconic radial cooling fins on the barrel could be eliminated, again to increase the weapon’s production. I learned from Doug Richardsons book The Thompson Submachine Gun Models 2nd Edition, that "this decision followed trials showing that the open bolt feature of the Thompson design, provided enough cooling effect to avert most premature ‘cook-off’ of cartridges. There was also evidence that a solid barrel dissipates heat faster by conducting through the extra metal, than the fins did by air convection. The additional up-front weight of the non-finned barrel improved gun stability during firing. This fact provides the argument that the elimination of the fins was an improvement".

 

Victor, I hope this information is of some assistance to you

 

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

 

Excellent 1928A1 overview Richard.

Your detail as ever is second to none

 

JD

 

Paul,

You are too kind, it is just knowledge gained from a lot of reading. Many books written by authors on this board and also posts on these forums, which can be very educational on the history of the Thompson. When I learn something new, I add it to my notes, which I now have over 100 pages, which I then update and /or correct, as I learn something new.

 

Stay safe

Richard

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Victor,

In my colelction I have three Thompsons, all deactivated due to my location, marked US Model of 1928A1.

The first has both the finned barrel and the Lyman sight.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 & AO L Drum.JPG

 

This example was part of an order placed by Britain during the initial ‘cash and carry’ period of ‘MODEL OF 1928’ Thompsons. This order of 50,000 ‘MODEL OF 1928’ guns was placed just before the introduction of the U.S. Lend Lease Program in March 1941. I am grateful to Tom Davis's book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story for this information. Savage was still using an early roll stamp for the ‘MODEL OF 1928’ markings at the time, but under the Lend Lease Act, the US government assumed ownership of the guns that were supplied to foreign armed forces. The Act stated that the guns had to be marked as U.S. Property, so, the "US" and "A1" were retrospectively added by hand stamping them to the 42,000 guns, (including 162659), from this order.

 

attachicon.gif 162650 SN.JPG

 

It is also roll marked 'Tommy Gun' on the top of the receiver, some Thompsons 1928A1's were marked as such in 1941, in order to protect the copy right of the name.

attachicon.gif 162650 Bullet & Tommy Gun.JPG

 

The second one has a finned barrel and a Lyman battle sight marked with address.

attachicon.gif No.14 body .JPG

 

attachicon.gif 14 A-O Bullet Logo & 1st Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

 

This is an interesting Thompson, as the serial numbers have been deliberately removed, and it is known that this was done on weapons supplied to and used by the IRA, to prevent traceability of the weapon, it also has an improvised fire selector lever. Its Blish-Lock piece in the bolt has also had its ‘ears’ removed, indicating it onced served with commonwealth forces.

 

attachicon.gif No.14 selectors & model.JPG

 

The third example has a smooth barrel and a battle sight, the version without the Lyman address.

 

attachicon.gif S 541933 LS XX Mag.JPG

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Savage Bullet Logo & 2nd Lyman L Sight marking.JPG

Its horizontal foregrip has been checked to add grip when being used in jungle conditions. This modification indicates it was used in the ‘Far East’, possibly seeing service in the ‘Burma Campaign’.

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Foregrip.JPG

 

It also has an early ‘REME’ workshop modified stock, with two screws added for reinforcement against cracking. This was a typical Commonwealth modification introduced prior to the ‘cross bolt’ upgrade. This modification was announced in the British Army Council notifications, (being 1909 from 1942), "Thompson M/C Carbine - modification to butt by inserting two wood screws".

 

attachicon.gif 541933 Stock with Reinforce Screws.JPG

 

All three examples are marked 1928A1 however, throughout the war, the Thompson underwent design changes that would make it faster and cheaper to produce.

 

The first change eliminated the finely machined Lyman rear sight. I believe that this modification was the result of an Ordnance Committee meeting held in December of 1941. At this meeting, it was suggested that a much simpler ‘L’ type battle sight replace the Lyman adjustable rear sight. It was agreed the new sight was better suited for a military application and it helped expedite production, so, from early 1942, 1928A1s’ were produced with the Lyman fixed aperture rear ‘L’ sight.

 

The U.S. Ordnance Department also decided the iconic radial cooling fins on the barrel could be eliminated, again to increase the weapon’s production. I learned from Doug Richardsons book The Thompson Submachine Gun Models 2nd Edition, that "this decision followed trials showing that the open bolt feature of the Thompson design, provided enough cooling effect to avert most premature ‘cook-off’ of cartridges. There was also evidence that a solid barrel dissipates heat faster by conducting through the extra metal, than the fins did by air convection. The additional up-front weight of the non-finned barrel improved gun stability during firing. This fact provides the argument that the elimination of the fins was an improvement".

 

Victor, I hope this information is of some assistance to you

 

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

Richard, I'm glad to hear from you!

Thank you for your detailed answer about the Model M1928 / M1928A1.

One clarification did the IRA buy the Thompsons after WWII?

 

Thanks !

Victor it is always a pleasure.
The IRA always had good networks to supply weapons from the USA and in the 1940's and 1950's, it was not unknown for them to raid British camps or Police stations to steal weapons, until the security on such locations was improved from experience. In the 1970's and 1980's Libya used to supply more modern weapsons.
Several recovered IRA Thompsons were sold by H.M. Government to a film prop company in the 1970s. In turn, these were sold onto the civilian market in the 1990s. The person from whom I bought mine from in 2012, informed me he had bought it from Batby & Co, suppliers of weapons to the TV and film industry in London, and that it was a former IRA Thompson.
During the troubles, it was not only the IRA that used them, the loyalists also acquired and used Thompsons. In the early summer of 1974 Combat magazine carried reports of a Loyalist raid, which alleged, due to information received from the Security Forces, a unit of the Mid-Ulster Volunteers seized a quantity of weapons from what is believed to have been an IRA arms dump. The Unit captured a Thompson submachine gun, two revolvers and a quantity of ammunition and explosive materials. Before leaving the ‘dump’ the loyalists laid a booby-trap mine, which later exploded causing injury to an IRA quartermaster. In a report to Brigade Staff, the Officer Commanding the 3rd (Mid-Ulster) Battalion said that this had been the third successful arms seizure in the Tyrone area within the past month” .
In another report from the same source, an Ulster Volunteer Force member in the late 1960’s, Gusty Spence, stated “I was always pestering this man for firearms and I bought the first Thompson submachine gun that was ever seen on the Shankill Road. I paid thirty quid for it and twenty rounds of ammunition. A .45 Webley pistol cost a fiver, which was big enough money in those days for working men”.
Hundreds of the Model of 1921 guns, originating from the SS East Side shipment have been seized by Security forces in Northern Ireland, the Garda in the Irish Republic and the British police in Britain, many of these were destroyed under the law. Some have had legible serial numbers, while others have had their numbers defaced and no doubt some guns remain in forgotten concealed arms caches to this day. Between 1922 and 2001, the Royal Ulster Constabulary reported 61 Thompson guns seized in arms finds. In 1983, several captured IRA guns were auctioned off by the British Government, through the Weller and Dufty auction house, these included two US Model of 1928A1’s, six Model of 1921’s with the serial numbers erased and one Model of 1921 which retained its serial number, 873.
Maria McGuire was an IRA volunteer, post 1969, who recorded her experiences in the book, “To Take Arms, A Year in the Provisional IRA” published in 1973, which mentions the old Thompsons resurfacing.
“Most of the weapons were World War II military rifles such as the M1 carbine, the heavy Garand semi-automatic rifle (it weighs 12 pounds), bolt action Springfield’s and British Lee-Enfield’s……. The rest were assorted pistols of vastly differing types and calibres, plus a few submachine guns, mostly the famous Thompsons…. most IRA men refer to them as ‘The Thompson’, though some of the younger ones also called them ‘rattleboxes’. They do make an incredible din…. Hundreds of them appear to have been smuggled into the country at around that time, (1921), and they rapidly became as much a part of the IRA legend, as the trench coat.
Many of the Irish Thompsons have spent more time under the ground than over it…. I remember a wizened old man came into Kevin Street and produced various parts of a rusty Thompson gun out of a brown paper parcel ‘tis a present form the boys in Cork’ he said. Many IRA men will tell you that the Thompson is their favourite weapon….one of the major faults with the Thompson is that unless it is kept spotlessly clean, (often difficult in combat conditions), it’s prone to jamming; another is that it needs a strong man to handle it, because its barrel should make an imaginary figure of eight around the target; a third is that it has a relatively low velocity and there has been instances in the North of its heavy .45 bullets failing to pierce soldier’s flak jackets”.
As you can see I read a lot, maybe too much.
Stay safe
Richard

 

Richard, thank you again for the information about the Irish Thompsons!

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Probably neither here nor there, but I have a WWII airplane, a Piper L-4A. It is one of 196 A models produced concurrently with the first H models in 1943. To differentiate these aircraft from earlier models, some internal Piper documents refer to them as L-4A2s. L-4A is what appears on the aircraft data plate, along with serial and contract numbers. L-4A2 was never an official designation.

ac1604711781023044.jpg

Edited by TSMGguy
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Maria McGuire was an IRA volunteer, post 1969, who recorded her experiences in the book, “To Take Arms, A Year in the Provisional IRA” published in 1973, which mentions the old Thompsons resurfacing.

“Most of the weapons were World War II military rifles such as the M1 carbine, the heavy Garand semi-automatic rifle (it weighs 12 pounds), bolt action Springfield’s and British Lee-Enfield’s……. The rest were assorted pistols of vastly differing types and calibres, plus a few submachine guns, mostly the famous Thompsons…. most IRA men refer to them as ‘The Thompson’, though some of the younger ones also called them ‘rattleboxes’. They do make an incredible din…. Hundreds of them appear to have been smuggled into the country at around that time, (1921), and they rapidly became as much a part of the IRA legend, as the trench coat.
As you can see I read a lot, maybe too much.
Stay safe
Richard

 

Irish News Connla Young, February 6, 2021, Fifty Year Anniversary:

February 6, 1971, Gunner Robert Curtis, age 20, first on duty British soldier killed in Ireland since 1921.

 

Norman Basson, who was a 26 year-old in 1971, attached to the Queens Regiment, warned the men from 50 Heavy Regiment they were walking into an ambush. He recounts the experience.

 

"We all agreed that it sounded like the deep slow gunfire of the notorious Suub-Machinbe Gun, otherwise known as the Tommy-Gun."

post-110-0-86295200-1631833087_thumb.jpg

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There's a Sten there, and what looks like an M1 carbine with the handguard missing.

 

Low velocity rounds like the .45 are going to be defeated by the body armour being increasingly found on the modern battlefield.

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Martin Parker
former Soldier at British Army (1990-2007)

"In 1970 the British Army had no ballistic vests. An initial amount of surplus vests were bought and express shipped to Bicester (Central Ordnance Depot Bicester - Royal Army Ordnance Corps) and subsequently sent to Ordnance Depot Kinnegar in Belfast for issue to troops. "

 

1960-70's British Army Flak Vest

 

post-110-0-63710400-1631843041_thumb.jpg

 

 

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