Pair of 28 Commercial Savages

[R67]

Sell gradually over many years, or your collection alone will crash the market.

[firearm]

Maybe, but I think we dodged a bullet last election. Might not be so fortunate next time. Just saying. In any case one of the RKI's asked about the internals of the 28's above. Pointed out something that I didn't notice. The buffer pilots on S-18656 & S-18741 do not have a hole drill into them. The buffer pilots on S-18082 & S-18094 do have the holed drilled out. All four are marked the same, with an "S" on the plate side of the fiber buffer. Why would they be different? Why would the earlier buffer pilots be drilled and the later buffer pilots not? All of the nickel bolts are marked "S". Actuators are also marked with an "S". Jpegs attached.

[bug]

I would venture that the earliest Savage BPs did not have the hole. The hole makes assembly/disassembly much easier by capturing the spring. The hole could have been drilled or the pilot swapped out for a later, modified Savage unit. My earlier Commercial came to me with a holed pilot but I don't know how it came to be there. Perhaps a close, side by side inspection would reveal something.

 

Bob D

 

PS Thanks for the overhead pic of the fire control parts. The "nickled" parts are exactly like mine and the others I've seen.

[TD.]

firearm,

Thanks for sharing that bit of information on your four 18,000 serial numbered Savage Thompson guns. The reason the buffer pilot does not have a hole at the long end of the shaft is because the contract between Auto-Ordnance Corporation and Savage Arms in December 1939 called for Savage to make the Model of 1928 Thompson gun identical to the Colt's Model of 1928 Thompson gun. Of course, the Colt's Model of 1928 was a conversion from the original Model of 1921 configuration. This new buffer pilot for the 1928 operating system during the Colt's era did not have a hole in the long shaft of the buffer pilot. It did not take long for military users to experience how difficult it was to install the buffer pilot and recoil spring (without kinking the recoil spring). A hole in the end of the shaft, perfect for the insertion of a nail or paper clip, made the installation much easier. The British, recipients of the majority of the early Savage guns, figured this out pretty quick and had an Armourer modification in place to drill a hole in the long shaft of the buffer pilot. See pages 136 - 138 in my book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. I believe the Canadian's also followed suit, another early user of the Thompson gun during World War II.

 

These no-hole Savage Arms buffer pilots, especially with the "S" markings on the side of the round flange (instead of on the flat of the round flange) are difficult to find and usually only found in unmolested early Savage Thompson guns. S-18656 & S-18741 are perfect examples of commercially sold Savage guns that were never "improved" by the original owner. Thank you Cameron County Sheriff's Department! Interesting, the example in my book is S-180XX, very close in number to the Cameron County guns. The exact point where this modification took place in production is not known, but it happened somewhere in the original contract for 10,000 guns. My guess is before the 20,000 serial number range (just a guess, guys).

 

If the Interarms imported guns, S-18082 & S-18094, have the "S" mark on the side of the flange of the buffer pilot like shown above on the Cameron County guns, I would think these are the original buffer pilots that someone has modified with the hole. If the "S" mark is on the flat part of the flange, I would think these are replacement buffer pilots.

 

This imparts another little bit of trivia for the Board. As more original guns are uncovered and examined, I know more details will come to light. It was not that long ago many Board members thought the Colt's era and early Savage era knurling for the fire control levers was the same.

 

All good stuff!!!

 

[buzz]

Indeed, all good stuff

 

My 17,XXX commercial savage has the original savage no-hole buffer pilot

 

It generally takes me between 5 to 20 tries to get it installed

 

try it sometime, the spring will compress straight, but it really, really wants to squirt sideways and do a loop

 

that would make a good contest, see who can do it 5 times in a row on the single try

 

my glove size is 2XL, fingers like a clump of bananas. I wonder if that's an advantage or disadvantage

 

I got another pilot with a hole, big improvement

Edited January 18, 2018 by buzz

[firearm]

Indeed, all good stuff

 

My 17,XXX commercial savage has the original savage no-hole buffer pilot

 

It generally takes me between 5 to 20 tries to get it installed

 

try it sometime, the spring will compress straight, but it really, really wants to squirt sideways and do a loop

 

that would make a good contest, see who can do it 5 times in a row on the single try

 

my glove size is 2XL, fingers like a clump of bananas. I wonder if that's an advantage or disadvantage

 

I got another pilot with a hole, big improvement

 

 

It took me forever to get that spring & buffer pilot back in place. My wife was brow beating me a little as a few curse words were required in order to reinstall it.

[Canuck]

I've received permission from the owner of the Thompson, here in Canada, that TD referred to in post #18 to put up some pictures. When I first became aware of this Thompson I thought that it would likely be one of the early British guns sent to Canada early in the war (and it may be) but I'm not sure that is the case. I have not seen the gun in person but have confirmed there is no alignment mark on the barrel. I would certainly like to see this gun and inspect it but sadly it is rather distant from me.

 

As Tom says "all good stuff".

[firearm]

Amazing. Within 4 digits of my 28. Is it possible to ask him if that buttstock is marked with the "upside down anchor" mark?

 

I made some time to make a few calls on SN# S18082 and S18094 over the last day or two. I chased Jeff Miller down and he said he bought them from Shooter's World in AZ, in 1996. I called them yesterday and worked my way around until I found the Class 3 guy. He said that the store had changed hands many times and that those old records were sent off to ATF long ago. Bummer. Time for a FOIA request.

[Merry Ploughboy]

 

Indeed, all good stuff

 

My 17,XXX commercial savage has the original savage no-hole buffer pilot

 

It generally takes me between 5 to 20 tries to get it installed

 

try it sometime, the spring will compress straight, but it really, really wants to squirt sideways and do a loop

 

that would make a good contest, see who can do it 5 times in a row on the single try

 

my glove size is 2XL, fingers like a clump of bananas. I wonder if that's an advantage or disadvantage

 

I got another pilot with a hole, big improvement

 

 

It took me forever to get that spring & buffer pilot back in place. My wife was brow beating me a little as a few curse words were required in order to reinstall it.

 

What I did when I had a Colt Navy Thompson that came with a pilot rod sans hole was to buy a small 'vicegrips' tool (less than $5) and grind down the outside of the jaws so that when they were clamped around the pilot rod they would fit inside the receiver channel. I put tape on the inside of the jaws so the rod wouldn't get scraped. Then put the outside end of the rod on a firm object, push the spring down the rod till there's space to clamp on the jaws plus about 3/8" to point into the bolt (as is done with the pilot rods that have the retainer hole), and clamp on the vicegrips. Make sure to position the vicegrip handles so that they point out during installation. One could also put tape on the outer edges of the vicegrip jaws if concerned about inadvertently scraping the receiver finish. Wear eye protection as the spring will be compressed very tightly.

[buzz]

Good idea with the vice grips.

 

I guess you could dremel a smooth semi-circle on the jaws to grab the rod without galling it

 

I have to assume there is some knack to doing it quickly without vice grips, because it seems doubtful to me that the factory would sell a product that takes their assembly line employees 20 tries to assemble.

 

They would have come up with the hole idea if the employees were struggling with the thing.

 

Also, one time I assembled it without any tools in less than one second, I just jammed the assembly in the gun and it went together easy as pie.

 

I must have done the little hint or trick without realizing it.

[buzz]

Amazing. Within 4 digits of my 28. Is it possible to ask him if that buttstock is marked with the "upside down anchor" mark?

 

I made some time to make a few calls on SN# S18082 and S18094 over the last day or two. I chased Jeff Miller down and he said he bought them from Shooter's World in AZ, in 1996. I called them yesterday and worked my way around until I found the Class 3 guy. He said that the store had changed hands many times and that those old records were sent off to ATF long ago. Bummer. Time for a FOIA request.

 

 

My savage commercial was owned by a police department with two thompsons, my savage and a colt.

 

I have a colt buttstock on my gun.

 

I'd love to find the owner of the colt and see if he has a savage buttstock

 

lots of stuff can happen to a gun in 70 years, especially if it's considered a piece of police or military equipment instead of a precious artifact

Edited January 19, 2018 by buzz

[TD.]

lots of stuff can happen to a gun in 70 years, especially if it's considered a piece of police or military equipment instead of a precious artifact

 

The above statement by buzz is so true. Finding unmolested Savage Commercial Thompson guns is quite difficult, especially when the purchasing law enforcement organization owned multiple types of Thompson guns. Or the Thompson passed through several owners and/or dealers in the past without an appreciation of this very special variation. The Cameron County Sheriff's Department guns appear to be original and provide a true picture of early Savage Thompsons.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

For years pundits have thought the "bright" or unfinished internal parts found in early Savage Thompson frames were Colt's parts. This certainly made sense because from the top looking down in the frame, some parts mirrored what you would find in a Colt's Thompson gun. Stories were written that stated Savage Arms used left over Colt's parts in the production of the early Savage Thompsons. While this statement is probably true to some extent, no author has ever provided any proof this happened other than anecdotal evidence when a Colt part or two were found in a Savage Thompson gun. I have always doubted the abundance of spare Colt's manufactured parts at AOC during this time period because of AOC's very poor financial condition until taken over by Russell Maguire in July 1939. I have always thought any major use of Colt's manufactured parts would most likely have occurred during the manufacture of the first 1,000 guns. Given only a few of these guns with 15,000 and very early 16,000 serial numbers exist today, there is really no way to know if this happened.

Of course you realize that Colt's Patent Fire Arms Manufacturing Company was still producing parts for the TSMG as late as November/December 1939. That's over three months after Maguire purchased AOC. These would not be the so called "left-over" parts from the 1921/22 original Colt 1921 production period. Frank Iannimico in his "American Thunder" reproduces a 1939 letter from Harold Davis Fairweather, Executive Vice-President of Colt (died May, 1944) to F.F. Hickey Vice-President of Savage Arms, informing him of the TSMG parts Colt is presently manufacturing. These included bolts, Navy Model actuators, magazine catches, disconnectors, ejectors, extractors, rockers, safeties, sears, trips, etc.

[TD.]

Excellent observation. I believe Colt's still making some parts for Auto-Ordnance Corporation at the time the contract with Savage Arms was executed caused a slight delay in the Savage production. Looking at the list of parts being manufactured, I believe it likely most of these parts were purchased by the US Government in the June 29, June 30 1939 contracts for spare parts. The Navy actuators could have easily been used to convert the 951 Colt's manufactured Model of 1921s to the Model of 1928 Navy model, also ordered on June 30, 1939. I know the 500 Swedish Colt's Model of 1921s would have also been converted to the Model of 1928 in early 1940. There was also another large order for Thompson parts on March 5, 1940, a month before the first Savage Arms Thompson guns came off the assembly line. See Page 169 of American Thunder II. How many of the "left-over" parts were sold as spares or used in the early Savage Arms Thompson guns is not known. My thoughts are if any parts were used, they would have been used in the earliest guns, the survival rate of which is extremely low. This is my reason for rejecting the often cited statement about the early Savage guns being a mix of Colt's and Savage Arms parts.

 

Great discussion!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

How many of the "left-over" parts were sold as spares or used in the early Savage Arms Thompson guns is not known. My thoughts are if any parts were used, they would have been used in the earliest guns, the survival rate of which is extremely low. This is my reason for rejecting the often cited statement about the early Savage guns being a mix of Colt's and Savage Arms parts.

Tom,

Is there a nuance in your use of the time period "earliest" and "early"?

 

What we do know is that Harold and Fred, who represent competing arms manufacturers, had a congenial business relationship. Fred chatted Harry up on the phone. Harold even divulged to Fred the jobber prices of these TSMG parts. Until about a decade ago, it was the conventional wisdom that Colt Fire Arms didn't want anything to do with the TSMG after the smg developed a reputation as the "Chicago Typewriter." Yet this turned out to be hokum as Colt did indeed continue a connection to the smg that bears their name.

 

At the time of the correspondence, November, 1939, Colt had on hand 2000 rockers, 1200 disconnectors, 1000 bolts, 1000 Navy 1-piece actuators, 600 ejectors, 500 sears, 500 trips, and 500 safeties. This is five months after the U.S. Government contract of June, 1939 spare parts were full filled. We also know that Colt held on to the TSMG machinery until February, 1940. This is what delayed Savage until April, 1940 from gearing up production to meet their obligations for the December 15, 1939 G-1 contract for 10,000 TSMGs.

 

Whatever the total production of Colt TSMG spare parts manufactured between November, 1939 and February, 1940 may exist in another Harold letter, but that number does increase the probability of Colt frame internal parts and receiver parts, being used in the Savage TSMG beyond the first several hundred serial numbers where Colt serial numbered TSMGs left off.

 

Harold was known to say "F. Hickey" around the Colt plant which raised concerns among employees what Harold had against the V.P. of Savage Arms.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[TD.]

 

How many of the "left-over" parts were sold as spares or used in the early Savage Arms Thompson guns is not known. My thoughts are if any parts were used, they would have been used in the earliest guns, the survival rate of which is extremely low. This is my reason for rejecting the often cited statement about the early Savage guns being a mix of Colt's and Savage Arms parts.

 

At the time of the correspondence, November, 1939, Colt had on hand 2000 rockers, 1200 disconnectors, 1000 bolts, 1000 Navy 1-piece actuators, 600 ejectors, 500 sears, 500 trips, and 500 safeties. This is five months after the U.S. Government contract of June, 1939 spare parts were full filled. We also know that Colt held on to the TSMG machinery until February, 1940. This is what delayed Savage until April, 1940 from gearing up production to meet their obligations for the December 15, 1939 G-1 contract for 10,000 TSMGs.

 

Arthur,

As I read the November 28, 1939 letter (American Thunder III, page 94/95) the date of the order for the above parts you reference was July 6, 1939. This leads me to believe these parts were long since manufactured and shipped to AOC by the time the November 28, 1939 letter was drafted. Again, I believe many/most/all of these newly manufactured Colt's parts for the Thompson gun were utilized in the June 29/30, 1939 and March 5, 1940 orders for 951 Model of 1928 Navy Thompsons and spare parts. These were large dollar contracts. I do not see Savage Arms providing AOC much in the way of spare parts before the first Savage Arms Thompson gun rolled off the assembly line in mid-April 1940.

 

 

Great discussion!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Arthur,

As I read the November 28, 1939 letter (American Thunder III, page 94/95) the date of the order for the above parts you reference was July 6, 1939. This leads me to believe these parts were long since manufactured and shipped to AOC by the time the November 28, 1939 letter was drafted. Again,

 

Harold states in his correspondence unequivocally that he is enclosing a "list of parts we are manufacturing at the present." Granted the date July, 1939 is beside the order of the Colt TSMG internal parts, but what is the point of Harold sending Fred a list of parts Colt makes for the TSMG that are no longer being made? But if you wish to discount the numbers of Colt parts available since the July, 1939 order was completed, how many do you suppose were Colt produced between August, 1939 and the end of February, 1940 that were available for Savage to drop in their April, 1940 completed TSMGs?

[TD.]

I agree. It is a list of parts that Colt's can manufacture at the present. The dates of the order for specific parts indicate when the last orders were received from AOC for the various parts you referenced in your earlier post: July 6, 1939. I doubt Colt's is still working on an order for parts in late November that was received on July 6, 1939. However, I do find the reference to the Type XX box and Type L drum magazines and associated magazine part orders interesting in October and November 1939.

 

I think very few Colt's parts were available to Savage Arms to drop in their April 1940 completed Thompsons. Obviously, others disagree and have stated so in print, but offer no documentation Savage Arms used Colt's parts to any large degree.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I agree. It is a list of parts that Colt's can

 

I think very few Colt's parts were available to Savage Arms to drop in their April 1940 completed Thompsons. Obviously, others disagree and have stated so in print, but offer no documentation Savage Arms used Colt's parts to any large degree.

 

Harold does not say "can manufacture," he says "are manufacturing." Why else did Colt hold on to the TSMG machinery long after Maguire purchased AOC if not to produce Colt spare parts? How many Savage factory assembled TSMG with Colt parts constitute a "large degree?" Savage made over 1 million TSMGs. The number of MODEL 1928 Savage TSMGs with Colt parts could never constitute a number that would be considered "large." Who is suggesting that number surpasses 3500-4000?

[TD.]

I agree. They "are" manufacturing when Colt's has an order. Obviously, for the parts you referenced, they "are" not currently manufacturing these parts because the last order from AOC was on July 6, 1939 - and the letter is dated November 28, 1939. However, since they have the machinery in-house to manufacture these parts, and Savage Arms has not executed a contract with AOC as of the date of the letter, they "can" manufacture these parts upon an order from AOC. There is no evidence any future orders were presented to Colt's from AOC for the parts you referenced after July 6, 1939.

 

I think very few Colt's parts were available to Savage Arms to drop in their April 1940 completed Thompsons. This is just my opinion. Obviously, others disagree and have stated so in print, but offer no documentation Savage Arms used Colt's parts after regular production began.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I agree. They "are" manufacturing when Colt's has an order. Obviously, for the parts you referenced, they "are" not currently manufacturing these parts because the last order from AOC was on July 6, 1939 - and the letter is dated November 28, 1939. However, since they have the machinery in-house to manufacture these parts, and Savage Arms has not executed a contract with AOC as of the date of the letter, they "can" manufacture these parts upon an order from AOC. There is no evidence any future orders were presented to Colt's from AOC for the parts you referenced after July 6, 1939.

 

 

Obviously? Well, why is Colt Fire Arms maintaining control over the TSMG machinery seven months after what you say is their last order for parts and seven months after Maguire purchased AOC? It is a a three hour road trip to haul the TSMG machinery from Hartford to Utica. Since AOC received a government contract to produce 10,000 TSMG's in December 15, 1939, and Colt still had the machinery, it is your contention that Colt Fire Arms was sitting on the machinery with zero orders from AOC to continue to make spare parts for the TSMG when Maguire knew with each passing day he was losing valuable time to satisfy the government contract?

 

Your interpretation of Harold's words, "list of parts we are manufacturing at the present" actually means "not currently" manufacturing parts? Harold was using the alternative definition of "present" and was speaking about a gift for his wife?

[TD.]

Wow! New information! Can you tell me about the government contract AOC received to produce 10,000 TSMG's in December 15, 1939? What contract? What government?

[dalbert]

Your interpretation of Harold's words, "list of parts we are manufacturing at the present" actually means "not currently" manufacturing parts? Harold was using the alternative definition of "present" and was speaking about a gift for his wife?

 

Arthur,

 

This is a great conversation.

 

It is my opinion that the statement you mention doesn't necessarily mean actively manufacturing each part...If you think through it, a manufacturing facility makes runs of parts at different times to maintain efficiency, and it's quite unlikely that all are being manufactured at once. Harold's statement means they were capable of manufacturing the parts at that time...The parts were not yet considered "end of life," and therefore were still on their books as a viable product, if needed to be manufactured. They were part of the available products to manufacture, whether already produced and in stock, or easily manufactured to add to available stock.

 

Having been through thousands of old firearm paper items, including many parts lists, I have sometimes encountered when a part, or a series of parts were discontinued, and the catalog or price sheet was manually updated to indicate the parts were no longer available or supported. I believe that previous to obsolescence, a company representative would have been likely to indicate the parts were currently manufactured, because they were still available for sale. If they were not already in inventory, the manufacturing teams could make more of them. The company had the ability to manufacture them up until a point when either the decision not to continue to support them was reached, tooling was scrapped, or other factors drove their obsolescence.

 

If you take Harold's statement exactly as stated, then you are correct...However, I think there's more to it than the face value...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Wow! New information! Can you tell me about the government contract AOC received to produce 10,000 TSMG's in December 15, 1939? What contract? What government?

TD., on 22 Feb 2013 - 14:26, said:

 

Savage did not sign a contract with AOC to manufacture the Thompson gun until December 15, 1939. If Savage subcontracted any of their work to Colt's for parts, it would have happened after that date - and been short lived. Most likely, if Colt's was still making any Thompson parts in that time frame, it was for Auto-Ordnance Corporation, the owner of the Thompson gun.

 

Savage was contracted to manufacture 10,000 TSMGs back in December, 15, 1939. Whom did Maguire imagine would be the customer for these 10,000 TSMGs when he went into business with Savage? Could it possibly have been the USA, U.K., Sweden, France?

 

"However, since they have the machinery in-house to manufacture these parts, and Savage Arms has not executed a contract with AOC as of the date of the letter, ..."

 

But in November, 1939, Fred and Russel Maguire did sign an agreement, if not a contract, to establish a ballpark price to be paid by AOC to Savage for each TSMG and that this new TSMG would be the version as seen in the 1936 AOC catalog also incorporate the Blish lock. This certainly explains why Fred is chatting up Harold about spare parts availability.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Having been through thousands of old firearm paper items, including many parts lists, I have sometimes encountered when a part, or a series of parts were discontinued, and the catalog or price sheet was manually updated to indicate the parts were no longer available or supported. I believe that previous to obsolescence, a company representative would have been likely to indicate the parts were currently manufactured, because they were still available for sale. If they were not already in inventory, the manufacturing teams could make more of them. The company had the ability to manufacture them up until a point when either the decision not to continue to support them was reached, tooling was scrapped, or other factors drove their obsolescence.

Dave,

I have recently experienced the reverse of this practice. Seeing an ad for an A.I.R. smog tube for an AMC Jeep CJ5 offered by the manufacturer and stated as in stock ready for delivery, I order the part. Days later I was contacted by the manufacturer that the part had been discontinued and I was credited my payment. The manufacturer refuses to update their website and currently lists the part as available so other unsuspecting customers can still go along for the same ride. Is this a tactic to determine the demand for this part before the manufacturer commits to making them again?