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What WWII Movie Would You Like To See?


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The Germans were horrible about confirming their kills. Read JG26 some time.

According to their records they shot down the whole RAF a couple times during

the Battle of Britain. Heck, the RAF shot down the whole Luftwaffe at least once

during the same time period.

 

Also, Hartman was shot down something like 10 or 11 times. Divide that into

his number of kills and his kills seem less impressive. He was rescued a few times from

behind enemy lines. He did however, take out several Mustangs defending Polesti

on one occasion.

 

Also, the Allies tended to return their best pilots to training establishments or

promote them to form new units. While the Axis tended to let their pilots fight

to the death. Witness the fall of Japanese Naval Aviation.

 

The Japanese really screwed themselves by their high standards for accepting aviation

candidates in the early war years. They should have been training massive amounts of

cadets but they did not.

 

Some Allied units did count strafing "kills" as "kills". The 4th FG did this. James Goodson

was known as the "King of the Strafers" before he was shot down and imprisoned while

strafing an airfield. That's how Gabreski got it, Godfrey got it, etc. Robert Tuck also was

shot down by AAA fire. All in all it was much more dangerous for the experienced fighter

pilot to put themselves into harms way by strafing than to fight it out at altitude.

 

 

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QUOTE
I would think that it is your generation that is famous for acquiring their history exclusively from the net.

 

What generation are you from mister hide behind a fake name?

 

 

QUOTE
And what does the fact that the Japanese flew planes without self sealing gas tanks have to do with American pilots dexterity in the air to get the advantage over their enemy and employ accuracy in shooting them down?

 

If Richard Bong were still alive, you could ask him, he is the one who said this: "Most were made on Japanese aircraft without self sealing gas tanks." Also somewhere in the 25-27 kill range on Bong was the controversial kill that most don't give him credit for. Thus the 39 instead of 40. Bong himself did not care about the numbers that much. Again, he said this.

 

 

QUOTE
Since so many of the best of the German pilots were killled in the Battle of Britian, and subsequent pilots had a short life expectancy in the air
35 German pilots are credited with over 150 kills. Rall lived after the war and spoke many times. Hartman did the same thing, some other did too.

 

 

QUOTE
The fact that the Germans flew all through the war does not qualify them as better pilots simply because they fought till they died.
Rall lived after the war and spoke many times. Hartman did the same thing, some other did too.

 

Also read page 200 of "Great Aircraft of WW2" Alfred Price and Mike Spick ISBN 0-07857-0669-5

 

Germans were infact MUCH better about confirming kills than the USAAF and the RAF.

 

You see, Arthur, turns out they were facts, not opinions like yours.

 

Have a great day!

 

LOVE YOUR SIG FENCER ( I played FA for years, I feel the same way)

 

Jr

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Forget Hartman or Wittman. Spielberg and Hanks will never do anything to glorify German soldiers. I was really surprised they let that German commander give that "Band of Brothers" talk to his men in one of the last episodes of BOB.

 

It is impossible to rate the top pilots, because there were so many variables. It took huge amounts of balls and skill to do what any of those guys did regardless of branch of service or nation of origin or plane they flew.

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I would love to see a movie about the sea battles for Guadacanal on November 12/13 and 14/15 1942.

 

Digital technology should make it possible to do all the ships and the associated air battles.

 

I am envisioning something like BoB on HBO.. Multi episode. Heck lets go back to the invasion in August

and work our way forward.

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QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Feb 22 2004, 09:17 PM)

The rating system they themselves used were the amount of kill flags on the side of their aircraft.

I should have been more clear. I know about the marking of their planes to indicate how many planes were shot down http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif . I meant comparing US to German or US to Japanese (or British to German). Number of sorties, missions, who they flew against, what kind of planes they had, what kind of planes their adversaries had, target richness of environment, length of time flying - Germans flying for years, Americans flying rotations, etc., etc.

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The whole pilot discussion comes down to having too many variables to be conclusive. By the time the individual pilot level is reached, the heirarchy and efficacy of the particular political/military/industrial/technical/philosophical matrix will always have more of an impact than individual skill.

 

Afterall, for all the skills of the Axis pilots, they lost. I think that's one fact no one disputes.

 

A higher order discussion has to do with individual motivation, not comparative ranking. I'm sure that would make a far better movie than just a kill count.

 

I think I can imagine the sense of desperation that the RAF pilots felt in August of 1940. But what about that sense of desperation combined with disillusionment felt by some Luftwaffe pilots in 1945? How did those pilots reconcile themselves with the good arguments to surrender, and the good arguments to fight on? THAT would make a good movie, me'thinks (the whole original point of this thread).

 

The Guadacanal story would be great. I'd also appreciate it from the Japanese side, like that Brando flick ("Young Lions"? Didn't it have Dean Martin in it?). Both sides are told. Two paths are developed that cross in one tragic point. Conflict: the essence of drama.

 

Now, don't get me wrong: my heart lies with the GI's of WWII. I'm not trying to say that presenting the Japanese point of view can justify or excuse their criminal actions. I'd just like to see them accurately portrayed (though we all know movies are almost always a poor venue for accuracy!).

 

For that matter, I'd also like to see the war against terrorism in Afghanistan accurately portrayed. And portrayed honestly and accurately from BOTH sides. I'd like to hear what really motivates those Al Queda guys.

 

Sorry, guys, but I really would like to hear them on film. Just before I get to see them blown up. I mean, sacrifice can be noble and all, but whether Imperial Japanese in '42, Nazi in '45, or Al Queda in '04, fact is, when you're wrong, you're wrong. Bad choice. Time for an attitude adjustment, American-style.

 

Boom!

 

DC

Edited by Hurridale
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QUOTE (Hurridale @ Feb 24 2004, 12:39 AM)
The whole pilot discussion comes down to having too many variables to be conclusive.  By the time the individual pilot level is reached, the heirarchy and efficacy of the particular political/military/industrial/technical/philosophical matrix will always have more of an impact than individual skill.

Afterall, for all the skills of the Axis pilots, they lost.  I think that's one fact no one disputes.

A higher order discussion has to do with individual motivation, not comparative ranking.  I'm sure that would make a far better movie than just a kill count.

I think I can imagine the sense of desperation that the RAF pilots felt in August of 1940.  But what about that sense of desperation combined with disillusionment felt by some Luftwaffe pilots in 1945?  How did those pilots reconcile themselves with the good arguments to surrender, and the good arguments to fight on?  THAT would make a good movie, me'thinks (the whole original point of this thread).

The Guadacanal story would be great.  I'd also appreciate it from the Japanese side, like that Brando flick ("Young Lions"? Didn't it have Dean Martin in it?).  Both sides are told.  Two paths are developed that cross in one tragic point.  Conflict:  the essence of drama.

Now, don't get me wrong:  my heart lies with the GI's of WWII.  I'm not trying to say that presenting the Japanese point of view can justify or excuse their criminal actions.  I'd just like to see them accurately portrayed (though we all know movies are almost always a poor venue for accuracy!).

For that matter, I'd also like to see the war against terrorism in Afghanistan accurately portrayed.  And portrayed honestly and accurately from BOTH sides.  I'd like to hear what really motivates those Al Queda guys.

Sorry, guys, but I really would like to hear them on film.  Just before I get to see them blown up.  I mean, sacrifice can be noble and all, but whether Imperial Japanese in '42, Nazi in '45, or Al Queda in '04, fact is, when you're wrong, you're wrong.  Bad choice.  Time for an attitude adjustment, American-style.

Boom!

DC

Hurridale, your last post is very balanced, thoughtful and worthy of consideration by Spielberg/ Hanks, and the rest of the closed-shop, liberal Hollywood establishment. I doubt they will, because they are too closed-minded to show the other side, the Axis side. Another thing to consider, about the German pilots, and whole Nazi military, is that there were three main reasons they lost: (1) Hitler constantly overrode his generals, often mistakenly, (2) because of Hitler's obsession with annihilating the Jews (in the death camps) too many valuable military resources and personnel were diverted from fighting the allies, and (3) the combined military forces of The United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, The United States of America, The U.S.S.R., the Free Polish, the Free French, and Canada, etc., including other smaller nations (economically and militarily), were arrayed against Germany. This, should in no way be misconstrued as an endorsement, on my part, of Nazi actions. However, it does say something about German fighting skill, tenacity, and resourcefulness, that they held out as long as they did, against the combined forces of the rest of the world, except Italy, Japan, and a few minor puppet regimes! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif Regards, Walter

 

P.S. That Teutonic fighting spirit and skill would be an interesting study on film. If I were making a film, I would focus on the German U-Boats, Stalingrad, the Battle for Berlin and the last stand at Nuremburg. The S.S. units defending Nuremburg, died, to a man, with no surrender nor desertions, even though they knew it was hopeless (Spring 1945)! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif

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The book by Guy Sager, 'The Forgotten Soldier', about his experiences fighting for the German army would make an excellent movie, or series.

 

I do not think Spielberg would make any movies that shows the Germans in any other kind of light except evil murders. I read when he was filming Saving Private Ryan, Brit WW2 German reenactors showed up for filming with proper period German haircuts and he made them shave their hair to look like skinheads. The reenactors were told if they wanted to be in the movie they would have to do it, otherwise they would be free to leave. I believe, in order to see the other side another director would be needed.

 

Scott

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Scott, thanks, I'll have to check out The Forgotten Soldier, by Guy Sager. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Another good book is, Berlin Dance of Death, by Helmut Altner, a young teenager, at the end of the war. He was among many young teenagers pressed into the defense of Berlin, against the Red Army, and an eyewitness. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif Regards, Walter
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Since the vast majority of the German population from 1935 to 1945, (military and civilian), were Hitler's willing executioners, it doesn't seem filmmakers made an oversight in not showing an abundance of sympathetic Krauts in movies......

 

Perhaps the most notable German soldier worthy of an honest portrayal in a film is Colonel Count Klaus Schenk Von Stauffenberg. His incredible nerve in getting that briefcase into Wolf's Lair is one of the bright lights in the entire Third Reich history. Stauffenberg was considered a traitor by Germans long after the war was over. So much for the image of the poor Aryan German citizen as hapless victim of National Socialism.

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Arthur, to deny that there were victims in every nation, in WWII, especially children, would be disingenuous and dishonest. That is what revisionist history is all about...slanting, obscuring, and otherwise tainting the truth. Thankfully, we have the primary sources, from the actual participants, like Mr. Altner, Mr. Sager, and many others. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif Regards, Walter
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Walter,

It is the revisionists who wish to excuse the German people of the time period of any culpability in the end result of National Socialism. Innocent children? There are no innocents in modern warfare. The German children were indoctrinated all their formal school lives to believe in Hitler and the glory in dying, or killing, for the Fatherland. To suggest that these Hitler Youths were impressed into service to defend Berlin is absurd. They were delighted at the prospect. They also were some of the most formidable and rabbid defenders of the city. But one can't be a cheerleader/aggressor at the beginning of a war and then claim victimhood when the end result is defeat instead of victory.

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How about a straight up remake of 'Thrity Seconds Over Tokyo'? Follow the actual book and factual accounts of the mission. No 'Gee we sure are sorry we droped that atomic bomb' crap. Show the Japs how they really were at the time. Show 'em decapitating our captured pilots in Tokyo square and the our 'allies' the Russians interning one of our crews. And this time have BOMBER pilots fly the mission!! The movie 'Pearl Harbor' did a great disservice to the men who flew with Dolittle by showing ex-Battle of Brittan fighter jocks as the only men capable of flying that mission. Any way. With the number of surviving examples of the B-25 Mitchel around AND todays special effects and CGI this would be a hell of a movie to remake. One of the sister ships of the Wasp is sitting in Pugget Sound right now. Watch the first version again and the over flights of Tokyo are unbelivable realisticl for the day. We could really make it sing today. Oh yeah, and get a crotchity lookin' old guy to play Dolittle, not that mincer Alec Baldwin. He had as much in common with Dolittle as I do with cheddar cheese!! We need to honor these heroes again and let the world know: No matter how hard you hit us, or think you have crippled us, there will be no place on earth that will hide from our wrath. No matter how remote or well protected you think you are. I now relinquish the soap box to the honorable gentalman from Texas.......
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Arthur, there were many Germans who stood up to the Nazis, and paid with their lives, after excruciating torture, like being hung with piano wire, on meat hooks, guillotined etc.!! You mentioned Colonel Count Klaus Schenk Von Stauffenberg. There were many others, among them, those of the White Rose Society, Admiral Canaris, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, etc. Again, I'm not an apologist for the Nazis. I merely state, accurately, honestly, and without the slightest hesitation, that there were victims in every nation, during WWII, including Germany. Regards, Walter
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Pathfinder,

 

QUOTE
Watch the first version again and the over flights of Tokyo are unbelivable realisticl for the day. We could really make it sing today

 

One bit of trivia about "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo".. during filming there was a big oil refinery fire near LA so the Director sent the Bombers and camera planes to do flyovers. What you see on the film is the result...that was really a huge real life oil fire going.

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Arthur, I do not believe in collective guilt. For example, when a drunken driver runs over granny in the street (killing her), only he should be charged with vehicular manslaughter, not the passengers, certainly not the guy tied up in the trunk, as he screams in protest and struggles to get free. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif There were many innocent Germans who opposed Hitler and the Nazis, and paid with their lives to help Jews and others, before and during WWII. If you do not believe this, simply check out, 'The Avenue and Garden of the Righteous Among the Nations', outside Yad Vashem, in Jerusalem. Many of the 'Righteous Gentiles', memorialized by the survivors of the Holocaust, were Germans. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif Regards, Walter

 

P.S. When I say 'innocent', I, merely, refer to those Germans who were not Nazis, and did not support the Nazi regime. Certainly, all of humanity is guilty of sin, as defined by the Holy Bible, and the Judeo-Christian tradition. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ph34r.gif

 

P.P.S. This is getting waaay toooo heavy! Lets go back to the things we all know and love that go pssst, bang, boom,etc., in rapid succession!!! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif

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Walter,

Germany's population during WWII was about 60 million. If you subtract the 100,000 active resisters to the Third Reich and the 1 million passive resisters, that leaves 58,900,00 varying degrees of enthusiastic, or indifferent supporters. To reject collective guilt because it isn't an absolute 100% of the population is the kind of parsing of words only a Johnnie Cochrin could appreciate. Your drunk driver analogy is hardly coompeling. How do you compare a random act with the deliberate collective crimes of a state whose policy was well stipulated by it's leader before he ever became deified by that nation's people?

 

Who do you estimate were the symbolic people in the trunk in Germany? It could not be the Jews since the only car rides they were invited on had the exhaust piped into the trunk. To continue your analogy, I suppose if the people got back in the car after witnessing the deliberate act of the driver running down the pedestrian, and kept on driving with the drunk driver while he continued to run over people, would surely make them conspirators. Or do you think the passenger wer drunk also? Is that a defense? If you want to illustrate how the claim of innocent bystander, or prisoner of circumstance, doesn't wash, I give you Patty Hearst's conviction of bank robbery, even though she was a supposed hostage of her SLA captors.

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Back to the subject at hand....

 

How about "Operation Iceberg"? The invasion of Okinawa involved the greatest armada of land and sea power in the history of the Pacific war. In terms of initial troops to be landed, firepower arrayed and tonnage to be used it was larger than Normandy. Nearly 1,600 ships, 183,000 actual infantry and marines. 250,000 americans overall, 12,000 combat aircraft, 40 aircraft carriers, 18 battleships, 150 destroyers. 60,000 troops landed the first day. But that was the good news, we ended up losing 12,000 killed (6,000 on Iwo Jima) 33,000 wounded or missing. 763 planes lost, 36 ships sunk, 368 hit. The japs paid though, 110,000 soldiers, 10 for every 1 american, 50 an hour, nearly 1 per minute for the duration of the 3 month battle and perhaps 100,000 civilians of which many were combatants. This was the heyday of the bonzai charge and the kamikaze attack.

 

I dont think there is any movie on the subject, certainly not one that does justice to the scale of the event. And for the most part it is a forgotten battle, overshadowed in text books (if mentioned at all) by Hiroshima and internment of Japanese Americans.

 

Rather than remake the Sands of Iwo, Iceberg would be an epic to behold though I doubt even Spielbefg could afford to make one this big and to it justice.

 

Check out Victor Davis Hanson's book Ripples of Battle were he discusses Okinawa and its suicide tactics and how they still effect us today. It also covers the Battel of Shilo and Delium, 424 BC (we all remember that one).

 

 

 

 

 

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