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C&R-what does that mean exactly?


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#1 MRCTMG

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 03:12 PM

I know it means "Curio & Relic", but have no idea what that means from a legal/functional standpoint. I was thinking it could be applied to any weapon past a certain age, but the more I see the term used on this forum, that appears not to be the case. I have a AO Bridgeport M1928A1 that dates to 1940 and an original Colt 1911 that dates to 1917 as my only guns that are old/"historic"-they would not be considered C&R just based on their age?


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#2 Bridgeport28A1

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 03:39 PM

BATFE listing of C&R firearms. As they state they no longer publish a printed list.

https://www.atf.gov/...128116/download
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#3 av8tr

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 03:53 PM

The regs. do state that a firearm over 50 years old is a qualified as C&R eligible.

 

Where that gets complicated is certain NFA weapons (or others too) that were destroyed, say by cutting the receiver, and then "remanufactured."  When the firearm was "remanufactured," it gets a new "birthday" and as such might not be 50 years old from that date.


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#4 Frank Iannamico

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 05:22 PM

Anything over 50 years old is automatically C&R (Original weapons in their original configuration. Not "tube guns")  There are exceptions...Smith & Wesson Model 76 submachine guns and West Hurley Thompsons to name two. 

 

You can petition the ATF to upgrade a gun to C&R status if it is rare or has historical significance. I tried to get M14s on the list for years, rejected at the time, because "they were still in service wit the military"  However recently an M14 was transferred as C&R. Although adopted in 1957, production of M14 rifles didn't start until 1959 and ended in 1964. It would be hard to prove exactly when a particular M14 was made. 


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#5 NFA amnesty

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 06:49 PM

Frank if 1964 was the last year of production for M14 rifles per your info above, would that not make all M14 rifles C&R as they are either 55 or 56 years old for the last production models?  Non Reweld of course.

 

Yeh, you are correct, I guess I forgot that its 2020 already

 

 

 

Well so far I am tied with a Broken Clock as I got two things correct today!!  Unless you ask my wife and then the clock is winning.


Edited by NFA amnesty, 14 May 2020 - 06:21 PM.

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#6 anjong-ni

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 07:06 PM

I believe that some states, CA not among them, allow most vintage firearms to side-step the FFL process and be shipped to your door.

 

In the case of an NFA-item, does that not somehow save you one transfer fee?

 

In CA, the only firearms that CAN BE purchased must be from the infamous "DOJ List", or else be "51-years-old",

leading to a dearth of nice 51-year-old firearms for sale here....Phil


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#7 MG08

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 07:54 PM

To get to the basis of the OPs question - the "C&R" label is a legal definition that has ramifications for possession, transfer and transport. Posts above have touched on some of the issues associated with C&R Status.  The definition is in federal law ( copied into many state laws) and all kinds of rules , license issues and possession requirements are tied to it.  I see the C&R list linked above.  This is a bigger subject than can be covered in one post here, but you should have enough info to ask more detailed and pointd questions now -


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#8 MrBill

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 09:00 PM

One benefit of having a C&R license (30 bucks 3 years) is that if you do have NFA weapons that are C&R eligible you do not need to get a travel letter if you cross state lines with your gun.Another very odd feature of the C&R list of guns is the addition of West Hurley Thompson (they are not fifty years old) and the addition of one Group Industries BAR that was manufactured in the early 1980's? If your Group Gun does not match that serial number on the list it is not C&R eligible  


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#9 Paul in PA

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 05:58 AM

I find the question of C&R much more confusing when we get to the Colt M-16 Family.

 

Colt model no.     Military designation      Production Years

601                      AR-15                           Initial orders 1961

602                      XM16                            Orders begin 1963?

603                      XM16E1                       1967 until 1982

603                      M16A1                         1967  until 1982

 

C&R Eligible = Older then 60 years / 2020 minus 50 equals 1970

 

Currently only the Armalite, AR-15, Model 601, cal. .223, mfd. by Colt. Must be marked "Armalite." is classified as curios or relics.

 

Has anybody seen a 602 or 603 transfer as a C&R eligible NFA?


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#10 MRCTMG

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 06:33 AM

Thanks for all the replies/info. I can see why I was uncertain of the meaning of C&R, it is obviously a complex issue! But I think I have a much better idea about it now, and that link is very informative. 


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#11 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 07:28 AM

Not complicated.:

Domestic requirements for eligibility. Import rules are different.

Firearms over fifty years old from date of manufacture, (original rule: no replicas was added way later)  Ut no replicas.

Certified by "official" as having historical value.

Derives it's value from uniqueness, scarcity, oddity, etc.

 

Only one attribute is necessary for eligibility for C+R status.

 

Nothing about originality, completeness, being "vintage" and a variety of other attributes which people are fond of adding. 

 

ATF complicates these simple requirements by selective eligibility. No replicas? West Hurleys! Value and uniqueness? Every registered MG In the NFRTR is eligible under all three, or at least two of the above.

GCA '68 was passed with the new rules. End of '68 Amnesty was the 2nd of December of that year. 
It is now 52 years from that date so by the above rules any fully transferable remanufactured MG from the end of the Amnesty to today is eligible for C+R under at least two of the above rules. As thd years go by, eventually all reman, transferable MGs will be eligible until fifty years from the May 19, 1986 cut off.

Will ATF allow remans to be C+R? There is no reason to not allow them as registration, transfer and possession requirements don't change. We'll see.

in these days of six to ten months wait for an individual transfer, anyone buying a C+R MG needs an FFL03 done in one transfer wait. A no-brainer.
 

There are other issues but they have to do with things other than the basic rules. FWIW


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#12 john

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 05:20 PM

As Mr Bill and others stated, the main reason I love mine is the ease of interstate transport. Not only can you do that without requesting permission (and that needs to be "address specific" and it's only good for 30 days) but if you are questioned, you have that FFL as proof that you are in fact, a "licensed" collector.
Now the other cool part. You can transfer directly from another owner to your license if gun is a C&R.....mail-order too.
Two of my four guns were bought and shipped to me after F4 came through....you just can't not love mail order machineguns!
And another gun I picked up from a dealer in Kansas after F4 was approved. Without that C&R you have to go through a dealer to transfer from another state.
And you can buy any C&R gun too. Pistols included as long as they're C&R.
It's the best deal out there for just $30.00 / 3 years.... that's just a ten-spot a year!

Edited by john, 14 May 2020 - 05:23 PM.

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#13 shadowman

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 12:13 AM

I've thought about getting a C&R license for a few years now, primarily for ease of interstate

movement of C&R Machineguns that I own.  As has been pointed out, the price isn't

terribly much (e.g., for anyone who has the free capital to purchase pretty much any

transferrable MG).  An added benefit would be direct purchase of C&R "Title 1" guns, and

perhaps the occasional MG if I found one in my state (not very often).

 

However...  after looking into it a bit, I became concerned about some "cons" to becoming a C&R licensee.  From

what I can read online, the following appears to be true:

 

- You have to record (bound book) anything you acquire with your C&R license  <and>

- You have to record any gun you dispose of while the license is in effect:  this includes the

C&R guns you already owned, and also, any trades (e.g., trades with other collectors, family gifts).  

- Any theft or loss must be reported to the ATF within 48 hrs of discovery... failure to do so

is punishable as a felony (!)   [this is per ATF Frm 3310.11]

- ATF can, potentially, visit once per year to inspect your collection and verify compliance with

the law (I realize this is rare for C&R licensees, but IMO should still be a consideration)

- A C&R license won't let you transport a later M16, tube gun, MAC-10, etc., any differently than 

right now

 

After considering the facts I could look up, I just decided to sit tight, at least for now.  The real holdup for

me was the possibility of unknowingly running afoul of some ATF "Licensee regulations"-- any $$$'s I might

save with a C&R license would be pretty small in comparison to the cost of dealing with the Feds...   :-/

 

My $0.02...


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#14 MrBill

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 03:30 AM

Interesting concerns Shadowman I used to have a FFL and gave that license up when Washington State wanted me to get a business and sales tax license.No big deal i still have my bound book from 1993.I  never heard from ATF accept for renewals. Now with my C&R i have a bound book ($1.19 @ Wall Mart) . Again I have never heard from ATF except for my license renewal.So my question to the community is: Has any one had a audit with their C&R license or any problems with record keeping? Or any inspection for that matter?


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#15 G-Man1006

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 06:44 AM

I have had a C&R for 20+ years and have never had an audit or questioned about my record keeping. For me it has been the best $30.00 spent every three years. Almost all of my firearms, including my 2 Thompsons, have been purchased using my C&R.

No inspections either.

Edited by G-Man1006, 22 May 2020 - 06:45 AM.

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#16 1gewehr

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 08:05 AM

A few points:

C&R means ANY firearm 50 years old or older!  So, if it was made in 1970 or earlier, it is automatically a  C&R.

Yes, you do have to maintain records.  And record purchases and sales of C&R firearms while you have the license.

If ATF wants to examine your books, you have the option of having them visit or going to their office.  I have not heard of a C&R licensee being examined unless they were looking for a specific firearm that was crime-related.

A license is for 3 years.  When your license expires, you can destroy your records.  There is no requirement to turn them in to ATF.

 

In my area, FFLs want $30-50 for a transfer.  Plus, TN requires a $10 fee for background check.  (It's a profit center for the State, so no free NICS check,)  So ONE out of state purchase with my C&R every 3 years pays for the license.

 

And, I have bought several C&R machineguns over the years.  Considering what dealers charge for THOSE transfers, the C&R has been a huge cost-savings!  Not to mention saving the the time of having a second transfer from a local dealer!


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#17 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 08:10 AM

The FFL03 is not a business license and the restrictions are minimal. For purchase of C+R NFA weapons it is a major reduction in transfer time since there is only one transfer which also eliminates the dealer transfer fee. 
It is a valuable license to have for interstate purchase of firearms at gunshows since it is cash and carry for all eligible firearms.
My licensed business is entirely MGs and I strongly advise any buyer of a C+R MG to get an FFL03 for direct transfer of the MG to him for the reasons above.

It is $10 a year!! 

 

 

- You have to record (bound book) anything you acquire with your C&R license  <and>-
   Yes, but hardly onerous

 

-You have to record any gun you dispose of while the license is in effect: 
 Only if it was acquired under the license. Again hardly onerous.

 

-this includes the C&R guns you already owned, and also, any trades (e.g., trades with other collectors, family gifts).  

 No, guns acquired prior to having the license do not need to be entered into the book but the licensee can enter the firearm into the book  
 before selling the gun if he is going to sell it to another C+R licensee as a record of the transaction.

 

- Any theft or loss must be reported to the ATF within 48 hrs of discovery... failure to do is punishable as a felony (!)   [this is per ATF Frm 3310.11]
Not sure what is your objection to this. Many states also require the same obligation for those owning guns in the state.

 

- ATF can, potentially, visit once per year to inspect your collection and verify compliance with

the law (I realize this is rare for C&R licensees, but IMO should still be a consideration)
No. ATF has no authority to inspect your FFL03 firearms, but ONLY your bound book which can be taken to the local office for inspection. I know dozens of long time FLL03 licenses going back 40 plus years and not one of them have ever been "inspected". As a holder of a variety of business FFLs and current 07/SOTII, I have had ONE inspection since 1975, the year  when I got my first license, an FFL01. Licensed collectors generally have low turn over and are handling vintage firearms so the likelihood of an inspection is virtually zero. High volume dealers selling handguns are high on the priority of annual inspections.

 

- A C&R license won't let you transport a later M16, tube gun, MAC-10, etc., any differently than 

right now.

This is irrelevant to the obligations or benefits of a C+R licensee.

 

FFL03 bound books do not go to ATF when the license is dropped.

 

ATF has absolutely no way of knowing what you are doing with your FFL03. There is no paper trail visible to ATF to monitor the activities of an FFL03 throughout the period of time that he is licensed.

 

After considering the facts I could look up, I just decided to sit tight, at least for now.  The real holdup for

me was the possibility of unknowingly running afoul of some ATF "Licensee regulations"-- any $$$'s I might

save with a C&R license would be pretty small in comparison to the cost of dealing with the Feds...   :-/


The only possible violation of the C+R license is using it as a business license doing high volume turn over of firearms with the intent to profit. If you do that ATF will regard you as being in "business" and require you to get an FFL01. ATF has rarely ever hassled an FFL03 for this kind of violation unless his behavior is so egregious and visible that they get wind of it.
It is virtually impossible to "run afoul" unknowingly of the minimal FFL03 rules. In my opinion your are creating issues where the are none.
ATF has zero interest in hassling C+R licensees. If ATF has you in their sights, it is for something that is far, far more serious than a violation of FFL03 requirements. FFL03 licensees are virtually entirely invisible.

FWIW


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#18 RoscoeTurner

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Posted 22 May 2020 - 05:02 PM

While I have a FFL01 and until this year maintained a SOT for a number of years I have also had a FFL03 for close to forty years, only use it for firearms going directly into my private collection.  The only problem I have had with it has come from sellers not wanting to recognize the 03 when making purchases online or at out of state shows.  In those cases rather than argue I have handed them a copy of my 01.


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#19 anjong-ni

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Posted 23 May 2020 - 02:57 PM

Personally, I'd love to latch onto some more C&R weaponry.

"Inter-Ord" just got a shipment of M1 carbines from Ethiopia. Pretty reasonably priced, and original. Wow.

But..

Several times in the last few years we've been treated to news-chopper-video of some guy's collection of "high-powered military weapons and ammo" spread out in his driveway while officers in body-armor write down serial-numbers and then toss the stuff into the bed of a pickup.

 

Here in CA, having more than 10 guns or 100-rounds of ammo in your "collection" can be "stock-piling".     Geez....Phil


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#20 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 08:59 PM

Personally, I'd love to latch onto some more C&R weaponry.

"Inter-Ord" just got a shipment of M1 carbines from Ethiopia. Pretty reasonably priced, and original. Wow.

But..

Several times in the last few years we've been treated to news-chopper-video of some guy's collection of "high-powered military weapons and ammo" spread out in his driveway while officers in body-armor write down serial-numbers and then toss the stuff into the bed of a pickup.

 

Here in CA, having more than 10 guns or 100-rounds of ammo in your "collection" can be "stock-piling".     Geez....Phil


Yes,

and had those guys had any type of license that likely never would have happened?   I was nearly swatted in a similar way, but they researched it, found out I was "licensed" and  I got a phone call instead, and a followup visit to close out the "non" case a few weeks later.   That license saved me potentially thousands and many hours?  They specifically told me that the license is what got them to "stand down".  I don't know that I'll ever be without at least a C+R at any point while I'm involved with firearms?

 

ATF does keep  loose track of what you are doing by asking at renewal how many you acquired and how many you disposed of at renewal.   Not any specifics, but I'd guess if you acquired 300 and disposed of 275 you might get a call?  Now maybe you just tell them you're a big Mosin collector and that's it?   There does appear to be a remote amount of accountability?    I've had a couple C+R's, and I do think I sent in the bound book when I closed out one of them?  That was many years ago, and I could be mistaken?


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