reconbob Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) A while back I built a gun (FA M1 Thompson) for a guy and he specified aMINT G.I. barrel be used. I had one which I unwrapped, degreased and fittedto the receiver, installed front sight, etc. He sent the gun back stating that thebarrel was not original because it did not have a draw mark. He could not beconvinced otherwise - no draw mark, - not an original barrel. I was pretty putout by this because I had turned a true MINT G.I. Savage barrel into a usedbarrel by fitting it to a gun, mounting a front sight and drilling for a front sightpin, and parkerizing. I was stuck and ended up finding and mounting a barrelthat did have a draw mark, and took a loss and sold the formerly MINT barrelas a used barrel - which the purchaser was very happy with. The lack of a drawmark did not bother him. So what do you look for to determine if a barrel is original G.I.? The aftermarket barrels are easy to spot - they are either so poorly made and threadedthat its obvious. Good ones made on modern CNC lathes have a finish -especially the square thread - that is so good and tool-mark free that its alsoobvious. Plus CNC barrels have an almost mirror finish (Green Mountain) whichoriginal barrels never had. Original barrels have a ground finish. On someoriginal barrels the fins are milled, not turned. After my experience I started taking a close look at every barrel that came thruthe shop. My rule of thumb for original smooth or finned barrels - you have a P at topdead center. If its a Savage round S barrel the S will be stamped between 12 and9 o'clock (on the left as you would hold the gun to shoot). If its a Stevens square Sbarrel the P will be at 12 and the S will be between 12 and 3 o'clock (on the right).Some barrels will have a O or zero marked at the draw mark either on the first finor in the first groove. But not all barrels have a draw mark, and thereforedo not have the zero. So much for my rule of thumb. After checking several barrels my only conclusionis that the markings are random. They could be anywhere, they could be completeor incomplete. Here is a sampling of barrel markings. No two are alike. I would addthat all of these barrels are here for work or have ended up here. None of them weresold to me so no claims were made as to their authenticity or origin... Original Stevens M1/M1A1 smooth barrel. Note position of S. This was on an IMAdummy gun: http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2805.jpg This is the only one in the group I question the origin - it has the P, a draw markbut no S. Was in a parts set: http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2806.jpg http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2807.jpg Here is another M1/M1A1 with the P and the Stevens square S at 9 o'clock. I would have expectedit to be between 12 and 3 o'clock since its Stevens: http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2808.jpg http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2809.jpg Here is a M1928A1 barrel from a Russian parts set - P, Savage round S at 9 o'clock, drawlineand O at three o'clock: http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2810.jpg http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2811.jpg http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2812.jpg Here is another Russian parts set barrel, P with the Stevens square S at 3 o'clock where youwould expect it, (but not almost on top of the draw mark), O on the first fin: http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2813.jpg http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2814.jpg And last, another Russian parts set barrel, P but no other marking except thedraw line which is way off: http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2815.jpg http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/reconbob/IMG_2816.jpg So you cannot rely on the markings alone and where they are located tojudge is a barrel is truly original, although I would be curious if there was noS somewhere. Does the absence of the S on the last barrel mean its not anoriginal barrel? If not, who made it? When? and When was it fitted to the gunwhich was cut to make this parts set? Bob Edited March 25, 2012 by reconbob 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnshooter Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Thanks for the great post. One question; doesn't the first photo, smooth barrel, labeled Savage, -have a Stevens (square) "S" ? +1 for pinning this information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted March 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Oops - you are correct - Square S = Stevens. I went back and corrected this. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piep Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Question on "draw line" is this the line to aline the bbl & frame or? It my be a silly question but I don't know.Thanks for a quick answer that I know will be forthcoming.Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Bob, Good informative post. Your last picture showing the drawing mark way off from the receiver is particularly interesting to me. I have seen this on the Russian Parts Kits and it has contributed to my belief that many of these guns were rebuilt before shipment as Lend-Lease Aid. More oftern than not, most factory assembled Thompsons that I have seen have the witness marks in perfect alignment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconbob Posted March 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 The draw line, in theory, was to be a guide as to how far to turn the barrel onwhen fitted to a receiver. The draw line is specified on the ordnance drawing forthe finned barrel where a gage is referred to. But this notation is absent on theordnance drawing for the smooth barrel. One wonders why they bothered with the draw line to begin with. A Thompsonbarrel has no gas ports, extractor clearance slots, or sight bases which must beperfectly lined up. The Thompson front sight or compensator was fitted after thebarrel was put on the receiver. New barrels do not have clearance for sight orcomp pins, and new sights or comps are not yet drilled for pins. So it was all doneat assembly. And GI Jive makes a good point above about the draw line being off on many ofthe Russian kits - I have noticed this as well, although I have not kept track of whetheror not those example have the P but no manufacturers S. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piep Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Recon and gijive.Thank you for the clarification on draw line. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken51 Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 I have a vested interest in this thread as I recognized the last barrel as mine. I wondered why it had no manufacturer's mark, too. All of the rest of the parts in the kit were clearly new and were clearly marked with the Savage s. I know on other weapons of that time, besides the prime contractor there may be several sub-contractors to supply parts the prime contractor may run short of, such as barrels. Marlin was such a sub-contractor for barrels on the M1 Garand. They were generaly marked LMR, but not always. Some had nothing but a drawing number. I wonder if anyone knows if there were any sub-contractors for the Thompson, and if so, Who they were? Any info on this would be helpful. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoscoeTurner Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Marlin was such a sub-contractor for barrels on the M1 Garand. They were generaly marked LMR, but not always. LMR is Line Material Company of Birmingham, AL, their barrels were standard on IHC Garands. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Anything on my 28N that I should be looking for, it has the two " draw lines " matched up perfectly. I'm in the ongoing learning stage here. Thanks- OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newtommygunner Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Indicating that the barrel and rxer are orginal to each other. It is very unlikly that the draw lines would match if the barrel had been changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken51 Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Roscoe Your right, LMR is Line MaterialCorp. Marlin barrels were marked "Marlin". I don't know what I was thinking. There was another barrel supplier, Buffalo Arms, that were mostly used for rebuilds, but I'm not sure how they were marked. There still is debate if any BA barrels were used on new rifles. When there are sub-contractors involved there is alot of grey area. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Anything on my 28N that I should be looking for, it has the two " draw lines " matched up perfectly. I'm in the ongoing learning stage here. Thanks- OCM Good news, thanks, like to hear that. Forum has been very helpful. Been around Thompsons since college, but finally jumped into the fire. Love it ! OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron_brock Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Roscoe Your right, LMR is Line MaterialCorp. Marlin barrels were marked "Marlin". I don't know what I was thinking. There was another barrel supplier, Buffalo Arms, that were mostly used for rebuilds, but I'm not sure how they were marked. There still is debate if any BA barrels were used on new rifles. When there are sub-contractors involved there is alot of grey area. KenI am not sure about Garands, but Buffalo Arms (marked Buffalo Arms and {date}) barrels were used new manufacture on carbines (I believe Quality Hardware, Irwin-Peterson, Saginaw S'G', NPM, and Standard Products). This is just as information as it's not related to the discussion. - Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Anything on my 28N that I should be looking for, it has the two " draw lines " matched up perfectly. I'm in the ongoing learning stage here. Thanks- OCM OCM,Is that a Colt 28N actuator in the picture?? As I recall you needed one. Where did you find one?? How much did you have to part with??Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Anything on my 28N that I should be looking for, it has the two " draw lines " matched up perfectly. I'm in the ongoing learning stage here. Thanks- OCM OCM,Is that a Colt 28N actuator in the picture?? As I recall you needed one. Where did you find one?? How much did you have to part with??Jim C Yes it is, put me 100% Colt now. I got it from a friend of Gordon H. It's an early actuator, has the grove in the front for the hammer, Gijive explained it ( grove) was changed in later production as it wasn't needed. This one was " minty" about 1800.I changed over everything inside to Savage as a 500 rds/yr gun. Shoots well.That's why I was asking about the Barrel and the marks, see if I needed to check out any marks. Nothing but the two lines. OCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrylta Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 OCM,Is there two separate witness lines on the barrel?Or, two lines with one on the receiver and the other on the barrel.-Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 OCM,Is there two separate witness lines on the barrel?Or, two lines with one on the receiver and the other on the barrel.-Darryl Hi Darryl, one line on the receiver, one line on the barrel, matching up to each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim c 351 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Anything on my 28N that I should be looking for, it has the two " draw lines " matched up perfectly. I'm in the ongoing learning stage here. Thanks- OCM OCM,Is that a Colt 28N actuator in the picture?? As I recall you needed one. Where did you find one?? How much did you have to part with??Jim C Yes it is, put me 100% Colt now. I got it from a friend of Gordon H. It's an early actuator, has the grove in the front for the hammer, Gijive explained it ( grove) was changed in later production as it wasn't needed. This one was " minty" about 1800.I changed over everything inside to Savage as a 500 rds/yr gun. Shoots well.That's why I was asking about the Barrel and the marks, see if I needed to check out any marks. Nothing but the two lines. OCMOMC,Good for you. You really lucked out.Jim C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCM Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Thanks, Jim, oh I know I got lucky. Ex cop gun, had an ear broke off sometime in it's history. Great pitina on the gun, which I like, has good history with the Whitey Bulger gang & a bank robbery, which I really love. Got a photo of it at the robbery, was never needed. Fun stuff. Really proud of my 28N , fun research ( my thing ) OCM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD. Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Bob,An excellent thread with great pictures. I too have wondered about the index lines on Thompson guns. I recently spoke with Doug Richardson on this very topic after reading the following passage in his book, Thompson Technical, Volume 1, Second Edition. This is from the story about “BARRELS,” copyright 1992 (pages 24-26): 1921-1928A1 barrels were marked with a horizontal line across the shoulder. This witness mark is located at the same place relative to the threads on all barrels. The 1921-1928A1 receivers also have a similar witness mark on the right side of the bore centerline. The receiver threads always start at the same place on all receivers. This is called a “qualified” or “ordnance” thread. Its purpose is to enable any barrel to screw on to any receiver such that when properly tightened, the front sight is positioned on top of the barrel. This is very important for guns which have the sight pre-machined on the barrel. It may have been that the Thompson front sights were fitted to the barrels before the barrels were fitted to the receiver. If so, the witness marks makes some sense. When the M1/M1A1 models were introduced, the system of qualified barrel threads was abandon. The military drawings for the 1928A1 Thompson were also changed to delete the thread qualification. Doug responded to me very quickly that the above information was incorrect and will be corrected in any future editions. Doug believes that Colt’s attempted to use qualified threads in the early guns but it just did not work and the use of Ordnance Threads was discontinued. There is no doubt the use of ordnance threads were discontinued. This why it is near impossible to take a barrel with compensator and front sight attached from one of the recent/y imported parts kits and install it on your West Hurley Thompson and have the front sight in perfect alignment. The question I or Doug do not have an answer for is why Colt’s continued to mark the receivers and barrels with a witness mark? (To make matters more confusing Bob calls this “witness” mark a “draw mark” and I call it an “index mark.”) Taking this a step further, I have wondered when the index mark to the barrel was applied. I would assume the index mark on the receiver was a standard mark placed on the receiver during some pre-determined stage of manufacture. The barrel poses a different question - and problem. Without ordnance threads, the index mark on the barrel could not have been made prior to installation because there is no way to insure the marks on the barrel and receiver would align. The barrel would have to be installed on the exact receiver it was going to be mated with. Was the index mark then applied to the barrel while it was installed to the receiver and never removed? Or was the barrel marked, removed, the index line applied, the barrel finished and later installed on that particular receiver. Time of manufacture may have not been a factor for the Colt guns but it surely was important during the Maguire era for the World War II production. The barrel installation procedure including the index line marking for barrel and receiver would have been worked out in the early production stages at Savage Arms and carried through the complete production run. So my question is were the barrels on the World War II Thompsons marked with an index line after installation and then never removed (unless a problem occurred with that particular Thompson that involved the barrel/receiver)? To do otherwise is going to be very time consuming, but I do not know the answer so let’s discuss. Bob, based on my comments above, I believe your new in the wrap Thompson barrel should not have had an index line. After installation, it would then be up to the armourer or gunsmith to mark the barrel with an index line depending on the current government regulations or instructions. Or in your case, the wishes of the customer. If a new in the wrap barrel is found for a Thompson gun that has the index line applied, the chance of the index lines aligning perfectly with the receiver are very slim. Without Ordnance Threads, how would the manufacturer know where to mark the Index Line on a spare barrel? And many thousands of spare barrels were manufactured. Do spare barrels new in the wrap exist with index marks? I would like to expand this thread a little further but I have gone on long enough with too many unanswered questions. Can we figure this out? Edited March 30, 2012 by TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piep Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 GentlemanPlease continue this is very interesting. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aut-ord-co Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 TD, I took some quick photos of two barrels that I’ve had for over thirty years. Purchased from Sarco in kits. All the markings on each barrel are as shown. The first barrel (first 4 photos) has four marks. The outside wrap was not labeled. You can see the Savage "S" on the fourth photo. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/barrels/001.jpg http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/barrels/002.jpg http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/barrels/003.jpg http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/barrels/004.jpg This second barrel (next three photos) has two marks (Stevens) The outside wrap is labeled as Rock Island Arsenal. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/barrels/005.jpg http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/barrels/006.jpg http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/rw50/barrels/007.jpg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bt3_guns Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Here is some additional information from Tracie Hill's TCN dated Dec 15, 1999. It is picture of a barrel check gague that appears to used to check the qualifying mark. These tools came from the Bridgeport plane and wereused in WWII. Just more information for the discussion.... Edited March 28, 2012 by bt3_guns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijive Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) All, Here are three NOS Savage made barrels, two finned and one smooth. All have the index marks and all three have no grove in the front threads where a compensator has been fitted, so none were ever on a gun. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/002-1.jpg Savage made finned barrel. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/001-1.jpg P-Proof, hard to see in picture. The P is stamped horizontally. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/004-2.jpg Index mark easy to see. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/006-1.jpg 9-54 dated Repack tag. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/009-1.jpg Savage made finned barrel, this one appears to be parkerized. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/008-1.jpg P-Proof stamp appears vertically. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/010-1.jpg Index line and 0 mark. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/016.jpg Savage made smooth barrel, with light strike on the S. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/015-1.jpg P-Proof stamped horizontally. http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp227/Colt1928/014-1.jpg Index line and 0 mark. Edited March 28, 2012 by gijive 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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