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My First Thompson


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I have been a Colt collector for the past fifty plus years but I just received my first Thompson. It's a 1921AC and the serial number is 4001. It was shipped to the Trenton, New Jersey Police Department C/O Captain W. Walter on 6/3/25. As it turns out Captain Walter had a checkered past as he was tied in with the mob and ended up in Federal prison for a couple of years.

 

2v2HKwiFzxA5Rgm.png

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Colt guy,

Congratulations, very nice Thompson. My Colt 28AC also came out of NJ PD.

Some here may not be aware of the many absolutely beautiful Colt hand guns you have pictured on the Colt website.

A person could spend many hours viewing your handguns on the Colt photo section.

Whats next in your future. A Colt BAR? Colt watercooled?

Jim C

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Colt guy,

Congratulations, very nice Thompson. My Colt 28AC also came out of NJ PD.

Some here may not be aware of the many absolutely beautiful Colt hand guns you have pictured on the Colt website.

A person could spend many hours viewing your handguns on the Colt photo section.

Whats next in your future. A Colt BAR? Colt watercooled?

Jim C

 

Thanks Jim for the kind words. I spend a lot of time on the Colt Forum but am a real newbie here so I still have to learn my way around. I just received the Thompson after a ten month wait for the permit. I am still trying to figures out what section here is like the Lounge on the Forum.

 

Cam.

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Colt guy,

Congratulations, very nice Thompson. My Colt 28AC also came out of NJ PD.

Some here may not be aware of the many absolutely beautiful Colt hand guns you have pictured on the Colt website.

A person could spend many hours viewing your handguns on the Colt photo section.

Whats next in your future. A Colt BAR? Colt watercooled?

Jim C

Jim. I forgot to ask what the serial number is on your 28AC if that is proper protocol do so.

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Cam,

Generally anything Thompson would get posted on the Thompson forum first, and the photography forum second.

You may get more comments if you repost there.

You are probably not a shooter, but may be temped to shoot your new Colt. On this forum you will be advise to get a WW2 bolt and actuator and switch out the Colt bolt before shooting. WW2 parts are common, Colt parts are scares.

My Colt serial number is 10353. Most books list this as a Newark PD gun. One of Tracies books list it as Newark FBI gun. This is probably an error. My 28AC is pictured below under Winchester, Colts and others.

Welcome to the Thompson world.

Jim C

Edited by jim c 351
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thecoltguy,

 

Interesting gun, looks very nice. Since your gun was shipped to the Trenton Police Department in 1925, it must have been shipped as 1921A Model (sans compensator). The compensator wasn't introduced until about 1926 and and started showing up on guns in 1927. Do you have any documentation that the gun was sent back to Auto-Ordnance for the addition of the compensator? It was not uncommon for agencies to do so once the compensator was issued as an option. Your gun has been through several owners over the years according to Herigstad's book. Is it possible the barrel was changed by one of the previous owners along with addition of the compensator. Are close up pictures of the compensator and barrel available? Clicking on your photo links to a Fotki photo uploading site, are there more pictures avilable there?

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thecoltguy,

Welcome to the Thompson forum.

 

NO 4001 with all the accessories is certainly a nice package. A review of my notes on NO 4001 indicated the original 1934 IRS Form 1 for NO 4001 still exists. I hope you obtained this document when acquiring NO 4001.

 

I am particularly interested in the metal Spare Part Kit shown in the hardcase. I am continuing my research in this area to expand what was published in An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun. I have found some new information that will be included in my next book. I would appreciate you reaching out to me at: tkd5501@fuse.net.

 

If your not already a member, may I recommend membership in The American Thompson Association and/or the Thompson Collectors Association. Both organizations have private or members only Shows & Shoots scheduled for later in the year in Ohio. NO 4001 would make an excellent display (tables are free). I guarantee a great time!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for the replies and I apologize for the delay in getting back to all of you.

 

Jim

 

Thanks for the nice comments. After I am on this Forum for awhile I hope to get familiar with it. It's interesting that your Thompson was also shipped to the Trenton Police Department. I see that yours was shipped in a group of twelve and mine was in a group of four. That's 16 Thompsons to the same Police Department, sounds like a lot to me. As for shooting the gun, yes I would like to and I did talk to Tracie about that. I already have another barrel and will try and obtain the other parts needed in order to be able to shoot it without doing any damage to the gun. These things are expensive and the last thing I want to do is damage it. I appreciate the advice.

 

gijive

 

I am unaware about the compensator as I am just learning about these so I can't really comment on it. I did not receive any documentation that the gun was sent back to Auto-Ordnance for the addition of the compensator. Is this information still available somewhere? Here are the pictures that you requested:

 

2v2Hw6HdWxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2Hw6HyGxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2Hw6H5nxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2Hw6HNqxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

Hopalong

 

Thanks for the nice comments and its nice to see you over here as well. I hope that Thompson is in your future.

 

TD

 

I do not know what the 1934 IRS Form 1 is so could you please explain. I did not get that form. As for the Spare Parts Kit here are a couple of photo's:

 

2v2Hw663GxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2Hw669FxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

I will reach out to you at your e-mail. I do have your book as I bought about ten books on the Thompson while I was in the ten month wait to receive it.

 

I just sent in my membership application for The American Thompson Association (TATA). I plan on attending the meeting at the end of July if life gets back to normal.

 

Along with the extra barrel that I was able to obtain I was also able to get an early C-Drum. Here is a picture:

 

2v2Hw6avqxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

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thecoltguy,

 

Again, nice looking gun. The compensator is an original second model that was introduced in 1932, so it isn't original to the gun. The barrel on the gun is an original Colt barrel and is pinned very nicely to the compensator. The pin has not been flattened by someone trying to remove it and fits the barrel boss nicely. Obviously, either professionally done or the barrel isn't original to the gun either.

 

What is more interesting is the spare barrel you received. The compensator isn't original, it is a late West Hurley type and appears not to be pinned to the barrel. The sight, however, is an early Colt type sight and the barrel appears to be an original Colt barrel. Can you provide close up pictures of the spare barrel with a close up of the sight where it is dovetailed into the compensator? If is isn't pinned, it had to be fitted in place with Loctite or something. By the way, nice looking early C drum. Care to share the serial number? I can't seem to figure out to to access your photo hosting site. Are there more pictures available?

 

See below pictures.

 

 

Compensator.jpg

 

 

27-12A-T1-AS__54569.1532369481.jpg

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thecoltguy,

Thank you for purchasing my book. I do hope you find it informative. Please bring the book to the All Thompson Show & Shoot and I will personalize it for you.

 

All great observations by gijive. He never misses anything! You will enjoy his company at the All Thompson Show & Shoot.

 

Be sure and ask for a table to display NO 4001 at the show (tables are free upon request. All you need is a table cover.).

 

There is a picture of an original IRS 1934 Form 1, Registration of Firearms, in my book on page 38 for another Colt's Thompson. There is a 1941 Form 1 on page 132. I do not have a copy of the Form 1 for NO 4001. I was involved in a discussion of several Thompson guns in the past and a former owner of NO 4001 mentioned he had this document. I will try to track it down. However, I suggest now you understand what I am talking about, you reach out to the auction house and ask them to contact the seller and see if this documentation is with the seller and available. You were a good buyer for the auction house; I would press the point. This document only has value to you. If the document cannot be located, you can always file a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request - See Chapter 3 - and receive a redacted copy from the ATF.

 

Thank you for posting pictures of the Spare Part Kit (SPK). While I am unable to verify 100%, the kit appears to be a Gordon Herigstad reproduction kit. See Chapter 17 and compare to the pictures I have on known original SPKs and the Herigstad SPK. The front rivet on the inside and outside of the SPK will most likely tell the story. If unsure, we can discuss further as there are other areas to look at. We can also look at the contents. I did note what appears to be a very nice British marked Recoil Spring tool in your kit. While not really from the Colt's era, a nice piece to have. Don't let that get away!

 

I would also follow up with gijive about your C drum. There may be some history to the drum.

 

All good stuff!!!

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Gijive and TD

 

Thanks for taking the time to comment on my items. As per your request I have a few more pictures for you to look at:

 

Barrel:

 

As you can see the Cutts is just screwed on to the barrel and not attached. How were these originally attached? With a cross pin like the barrel on my Thompson?

 

2v2HwsVvoxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2HwsVU2xA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2HwsV93xA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2HwsVuNxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2HwsVJrxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2HwsVaMxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2HwsVezxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2HwsVZoxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

The Parts Kit:

 

2v2HwsSMrxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2HwsV2MxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

2v2HwsV3zxA5Rgm.jpgHosted on Fotki

 

Thanks again and please let me know if you need any more pictures.

 

Cam.

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thecoltguy,

 

Thanks for the detailed photos you posted. The spare barrel you have is a WWII vintage barrel that was never on a gun since there is no groove where the compensator pin would have been. Original compensators were threaded onto the barrel and then drilled and pinned, just like the barrel and compensator on your gun. As previously mentioned, the compensator on the spare barrel isn't period correct, it is a modern reproduction but the sight blade is the same as the Colt era sight blades that arc to a more pointed tip. The WWII sight blades on the 1928 and the M1 Models had a sight with a flatter top, easily recognized without measurements or calipers. It isn't clear whether the sight blade is an original Colt era blade for the compensator, someone could have machined one to make it look original or it may be an original, hard to tell.

 

Anyway, nice looking gun and accessories. Thanks for the great photos.

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As it turns out Captain Walter had a checkered past as he was tied in with the mob and ended up in Federal prison for a couple of years.

Chief William P. Walter (1929)

post-110-0-28752200-1586626531_thumb.jpg

 

It seems that Walter did send back all four of the Colt TSMGs to AOC for the 2nd pattern Cutts/barrel upgrade between 1932 and 1934 when he was suspended. He was convicted in 1935 for malfeasance in office.

 

"When former Chief William Walter died in 1957, at age 77, the Trenton Times ran an obituary detailing his long service as a lawman. It never mentioned his conviction."

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Nice pic and nice gun the important thing the gun and drum are original.Everybody can have a repo spare case or barrel or comp.That can happen, nice piece of police history. And being a Colt collector The Ultimate Colt, Next to a Colt 'Walker"

post-504-0-80692200-1586649287_thumb.jpg

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Very beautiful Thompson! I have enjoyed the conversation about it. Could anyone post a link to the TheColtguy's webpage to look at his other pictures? Thanks!

 

I don't have a web page, just a collector with lots of stuff like most others. I have been a Colt pre war double action revolver collector for the past fifty years but this is my first venture into the world of Thompsons so I am looking for a lot of good help and advice.

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As it turns out Captain Walter had a checkered past as he was tied in with the mob and ended up in Federal prison for a couple of years.

Chief William P. Walter (1929)

attachicon.gif Chief William P. Walter 1929.jpg

 

It seems that Walter did send back all four of the Colt TSMGs to AOC for the 2nd pattern Cutts/barrel upgrade between 1932 and 1934 when he was suspended. He was convicted in 1935 for malfeasance in office.

 

>"When former Chief William Walter died in 1957, at age 77, the Trenton Times ran an obituary detailing his long service as a lawman. It never mentioned his conviction."

 

Arthur

 

Thanks for the reply and the picture of Chief Walter. Do you know where I might be able to obtain a quality large size photo of him? Also where did you get the information showing that all four TSMGs were sent back to AOC? I certainly would like to obtain a copy for my records.

 

Thanks, Cam.

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thecoltguy,

 

Thanks for the detailed photos you posted. The spare barrel you have is a WWII vintage barrel that was never on a gun since there is no groove where the compensator pin would have been. Original compensators were threaded onto the barrel and then drilled and pinned, just like the barrel and compensator on your gun. As previously mentioned, the compensator on the spare barrel isn't period correct, it is a modern reproduction but the sight blade is the same as the Colt era sight blades that arc to a more pointed tip. The WWII sight blades on the 1928 and the M1 Models had a sight with a flatter top, easily recognized without measurements or calipers. It isn't clear whether the sight blade is an original Colt era blade for the compensator, someone could have machined one to make it look original or it may be an original, hard to tell.

 

Anyway, nice looking gun and accessories. Thanks for the great photos.

C.

 

Thanks for all your help and information, much appreciated. I had the pleasure of talking to TD today and like you he was extremely helpful.

 

Regards, Cam.

Edited by thecoltguy
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Arthur

 

 

Thanks for the reply and the picture of Chief Walter. Do you know where I might be able to obtain a quality large size photo of him? Also where did you get the information showing that all four TSMGs were sent back to AOC? I certainly would like to obtain a copy for my records.

 

Thanks, Cam.

 

Cam,

You might want to contact the Trenton New Jersey Police Museum for info (see below). Gordon Herigstad Colt Thompson Serial Numbers reports that the four Trenton PD Colts are 1921ACs. As they were purchased in 1925 as 1921As, before the initial Cutts option was available in 1926, the Chief sent them back to AOC for the Cutts/barrel installation. Whether he sent them back all at one time, or in pairs, so the department wouldn't be without the firepower during their absence, is unknown.

 

historian@tpdhistory.com

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Arthur, you mention Cutts/barrel installation. Were the barrels replaced or modified at that time? Or is that not documented? TIA

 

Bob D

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Arthur, you mention Cutts/barrel installation. Were the barrels replaced or modified at that time? Or is that not documented? TIA

 

Bob D

 

AOC did advertise in the 1936 Auto-Ordnance Corporation law enforcement catalog that when a customer ordered a Colt TSMG with the new type II Cutts Compensator the replacement barrel was an additional cost.

 

"Cutts Compensator fitted to Thompson Gun barrel at factory ---(barrel extra)....$25.00"

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