The man who shot Bonnie and Clyde

[OCM]

Jim-

I've read the Hamer statement also, somewhere.

Edited May 12, 2016 by OCM

[darrylta]

Knowing that Clyde was a BAR fan and the damage that could be fraught by one.

It makes little sense to me that Frank had not brought his weapon of mass destruction

to the fight. I like to think he did, even though many have said he didn't??

Darryl

[HANS]

t makes little sense to me that Frank had not brought his weapon of mass destruction

to the fight. I like to think he did, even though many have said he didn't??

 

The question is whether Hamer even had the Colt Monitor at that point. Considering the lack of evidence (it is never mentioned by himself in the contemporary accounts and is nowhere seen on Hinton's film, while the ordinary BAR and all the shotties and ordinary Model 8s are in there), I think it is likely that he got the Monitor after the event, just like the Model 81 Police Special so famously shown by his son. Perhaps one can trace it with the serial number?

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[jim c 351]

I agree with Hans.

What really amazed me is how many of the posse were armed with shotguns.

If I remember correctly, Ted Hinton was involved in an earlier arrest attempt. Ted was armed with a TSMG and hit the fleeing B&C car 17 times.

The 45s failed to penetrate the car body. That's why he traded the Tommy for the BAR.

If a 45 wouldn't penetrate then neither would OO buck.

Jim C

[OCM]

We believe the Monitor was borrowed from the Dallas/Sherveport PD or FBI office. Lot of mystery surrounds this ambush event, I never could understand why.

Jim is correct about the Sowers meeting/shooting and use of a Thompson. My friend Marie Barrow was there, told me all about it and I agree with him a 45 would not completely penetrate the 33-34 Ford doors nor a shotgun with buckshot as some assume. These guys knew they needed BARs, Monitors, Sherman tanks anything.

I've heard a million stories and theories about all this Bonnie & Clyde ambush stuff, it's down to make up your own conclusions or buy yourself a HG Wells Time Machine. People want to debate the research on the ambush- Do it yourself as I did. I'm done with that.

I've done probably the most " over the top " research on the event & car then anyone. We used a 34 Ford, timed the sequence, I've been to the site about 3 times took measurements and all, inspected the car for sure, listened to many stories , angle of bullets in the car on & on& on & on and came up with our own conclusion # 1,675 conclusion. That's as far as I took it and will. My conclusions are written in books that anyone can read, and anyone can come up with their own story.

Jim Knight's book is maybe the best out there on the subject, but he's since leaning toward the buckshot theory, but I agree with Jim C on this one.

I've had people tell me where bullets were, weren't, should be etc, but I tell them I've had my hands almost completely over the whole car & about 150 photos of the machine. Stuck my fingers in the holes, all that.

We have that Hamer was last in line as the car high centered and the clutch stalled when Barrow's foot went off in low gear ( did the exact same with a duplicate 34 Ford as a test)

We counted the continuing holes that went around the back quarter, rear and onto the passenger side - BIG holes, 30.06 holes, that went thru the car. out the front ( thru Bonnie). We counted 12,3,4,5,6,7,8,........20. Ending above her door. Hamer=Monitor. As I remember there appeared to be a couple extra holes too- Old Lucky ?

 

Get Jim's book, you can read all about it or Go Down Together by Jeff Guinn.

 

 

OCM

Edited April 23, 2016 by OCM

[dalbert]

Sandy,

 

Excellent posts here. I'm so glad you're on this forum.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[OCM]

David-

 

So am I, thanks for the vehicle to tell these old stories- Lot of stuff to remember and a lot of stuff lost in memory too. Nothing critical to the Earth, just old gangster history. Bunch of good folks on your site, lot of knowledge about all sorts of things, good things like Thompsons.Haaaa

 

Sandy

[darrylta]

Sandy,

Thanks for the info, most of the articles I've read all dismiss a Monitor being present at the scene.

I've ordered both of your aforementioned books and Frank's biography book as well.

Amazon.com is a wonderful thing.

Darryl

Edited April 24, 2016 by darrylta

[OCM]

Everybody is an expert on the ambush, but nobody is alive that witnesses the ambush. Hamer, Hinton books all contradict each other ( read them) , he said this, he said that- All the books the same. Won't or need to go into that. Jim's book is great, with the help of Bonnie & Clyde expert, Jonathan Davis, who probably knew more about Clyde & Bonnie that they did. I've known Jonathan for years, he took my wife and I, around the complete tour of the Clyde & Bonnie days places, when they still existed. Lots of years ago. He introduced me to Marie Barrow & Luke Scoma, who became a close friends. Then Buddy Barrow who I still BS with on a regular basis. Good guy, knows a bunch-

Jeff' Guinn's book, is a big book but really shows the times and how they lived-

I asked Marie, what was the most memorable things about the Clyde days, her answer was " hunger " .. read the books-

 

Honestly, much prefer the Dillinger episodes, Clyde & Bonnie are to " cult" for me. Strange group of followers, lot worship them. Fun researching them, tho- I guess I was " cult" enough to clone the death car... etc.

 

nite

 

OCM

Edited June 26, 2016 by OCM

[johnsonlmg41]

OCM,

fascinating reading! Lots of stories indeed, however your interpretations seem to be backed by physics which is rare these days. The criminal culture always seems glorious to onlookers and cultists, however reality never seems to bear that out? Thanks for sharing actual research!!

[HANS]

The bullet holes are interesting but not entirely conclusive. After all, we know for certain that Hinton had an M1918 BAR, which is in all the contemporary accounts and also visible in Hinton's 16-mm film, while the Monitor is not. Surely the holes from an M1918 BAR and an R80 Monitor are indistinguishable at that distance.

 

Anyway, I have no beef in this, I think the Monitor is an awesome rifle and this would make the design even more interesting than the FBI and the Nelson connections already make it. However, I find it difficult to correlate the contemporary sources with the Monitor use.

 

The easiest way to settle all this would be to trace the path of this particular Monitor with its serial number. Unfortunately Colt don't offer to do that for the BARs.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[jim c 351]

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x82/cat9x/AmbushsiteMay23rd1934.jpg count the guns. Jim C

Edited April 24, 2016 by jim c 351

[HANS]

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x82/cat9x/AmbushsiteMay23rd1934.jpg count the guns. Jim C

 

It's still conspicously absent from the visual documentation (ie, Hinton's film) and the contemporary accounts. There are about half a dozen interviews around, made by posse members the same day or at least the same year. All the accounts mention Hinton's BAR. Why would all of them go out of their way to not mention the Monitor, which for all effects and purposes was also a BAR? And a very weird looking one as well, surely nobody who's ever seen one would forget it, with the aggressive-looking Cutts, the short barrel and massive handguard, and the modern-looking pistol grip. Why would Hamer himself say he used a shotgun?

 

Look, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I just don't see the evidence. The fact that we see only five out of six long arms lying on the roof doesn't mean the sixth is the one we want it to be.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited April 24, 2016 by HANS

[darrylta]

It may be that Bonnie & Clyde had a fanatic following. To circumvent over kill ill will, they may intentionally avoided the fact that a Monitor was used on them. Hoover had called the Monitor his weapon of mass destruction, may have been just a PC move.

Of course, I may be a little prejudice on the matter, since I own the "Reno" Washoe County Sheriff's Monitor

Darryl

Edited April 24, 2016 by darrylta

[jim c 351]

Hans,

I didn't post the picture to prove that the missing gun was a Monitor neither did I post it to prove that the missing gun was a 15 shot Remington.

I just posted it for your viewing pleasure.

Personally I don't believe that either a Monitor or a 15 shot Remington where used.

Hopefully , with this knowledge you will be able to enjoy the picture for what it is,---a neat picture.

Jim C

[OCM]

Interesting , you boys need to update the history on the guns of the Clyde & Bonnie ambush. Like to see what you come up with.

 

OCM

[HANS]

Hans,

I didn't post the picture to prove that the missing gun was a Monitor neither did I post it to prove that the missing gun was a 15 shot Remington.

I just posted it for your viewing pleasure.

 

And it is very much appreciated! There are a number of stills from Hinton's film around, but this one is particularly good.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[HANS]

Interesting , you boys need to update the history on the guns of the Clyde & Bonnie ambush. Like to see what you come up with.

 

OCM

 

I'm trying, although I'm not all that much interested in Bonnie & Clyde I'm still going through sources. The latest thing I found out is that Ted Hinton's shotgun was an FN-Browning Auto-5. Most sources mention that he had a shotgun as well as his BAR, but one also mentions that this was the gun he received from Toy Woolley, who was charged in 1933 of having murdered his wife with the gun. The wife had bought it from Sears only a day earlier. Checking the Fall 1933 catalogue of Sears, I found that it could have been only one make and model for the price quoted: an FN-Browning Auto-5.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

I might suggest a book to help you guys with your research: On the Trail of Bonnie & Clyde Then and Now by Winston G. Ramsey. Winston was assisted a lot by Jonathan Davis & Jim Knight. It's a big book with photos of then & now sites that the dual traveled, lots of rare photos. I got some nice credit too with my collection, showing the hat Clyde had on when killed and Bonnie tam found in the car ( accidently returned to the Barrow family and they kept it. Marie told me flat out, " Bonnie didn't need it no more she was dead " ) lot of good still of the ambush, the Gasquet photographs ( guy that took a bunch of photos from and after the ambush), Lots on the car stuff, guns including the Hamer R-80 Monitor & Manny Gault's Rem model 8, the M1901 we talked about, the Browning 1911 20guage Mrs. Parker tried to get back, movie stuff, funeral stuff and a ton of other things.

Hope this helps-

Winston was kind enough to give me an autographed copy when it came out.

 

OCM

[darrylta]

Sandy,

I received the Bonnie / Clyde book. While thumbing through it, I came across a guy dressed in sweat pants, white sneakers

and sun glasses inside a 30's Ford. I didn't connect it at first,,, I think it was you. :-)

Great job on the replica car and research!

Darryl

Edited April 27, 2016 by darrylta

[OCM]

Cold day that day- It wasn't 100% complete-

Edited May 12, 2016 by OCM

[HANS]

Very nice car! I've often wondered how comfortable the ride in these old cars really was.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

Comfortable- not really. Big cloth covered spring seats basically, mohair ( common) very scratchy. No seat belts, guns and butts bounce all over the place, especially if you're traveling on back roads. Shocks were marginal, no AC, heat was optional, tires blew about every 100 miles......

 

Fun being an outlaw in the 30s