IRA Thompson

[Lammerlaw]

I am curious as to what American collectors think of the Model 1921 Thompson I have. It is a three digit serial number and ex IRA which means that the serial number has been chiselled off. Its serial number may be 889. I do realise that if the barrel was removed then the serial number would be easily read but I am not prepared to remove it to find out.

Regardless of that point it is the real deal and in very good order - all original and the amount of the original finish can be clearly seen.

What would its 'ball park' value in the US be?

All parts are original Colt and it has not been deactivated beyond storing separately the firing pin and hammer

 

This is my first post so trial and error here and hopefully I can not only get the post on line but photos as well!

 

[url=http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/nzef1945/media/P11809211_zps585d29a4.jpg.html]http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah41/nzef1945/P11809211_zps585d29a4.jpg

[url=http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/nzef1945/media/P11809201_zps48282553.jpg.html]http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah41/nzef1945/P11809201_zps48282553.jpg

 

 

[giantpanda4]

Welcome here! You will enjoy this site!

 

Very nice gun! And the pics came through well to!

 

As far as the serial number, the early 3 digit guns had the serial number in 4 places on the gun. The obvious two locations are probably the ones that are chiseled off - the upper and lower receivers, and the "secret" one under the grip mount requieres removing the barrel. But the first 1000 guns also has the number electro-penciled on the breech end of the barrel. You should be able to read it with maybe a small mirror or just looking in the breech.

 

I have a barrel that was from gun #848 (or #849) and it is very visible, but the barrel is removed.

 

See what you can find there! Cameras see better than my eyes now so I take pics and enlarge them. Please post if you find it!

[joseph12297]

Hello,

 

You can use a light and a mirror to see the serial number on the end of the barrel, chamber end hopefully.

Original Colt Thompsons in this condition here would be approximately high $30's-$40 thousand US dollars(my opinion only). Of coarse that is for a transferrable gun registered legally in the US, which this is not.

 

Would love to know if you can find the serial number!!

Edited December 8, 2014 by joseph12297

[buzz]

where is the gun?

[laurencen]

my first guess is in the UK

[Lammerlaw]

I can see the serial numbers on the end of the barrel but only the bottom of them and they are three rounded bottom numbers so have to be 6, 8 or 9 - At this stage I am pretty certain that they are 889

I tried to use modelers putty or plasticine to mold the number but can only get the bottom of the digits.

 

The gun is in New Zealand - that little country down the bottom of the South Pacific. There are ten or so Model 1921 Thompsons in New Zealand all ex IRA and one I know of which is not ex IRA. It was described when it was first sold in New Zealand about 1978 as being 'Mint' but the next phrase in its description ';Retains most original blue all over' clearly contradicts the 'mint' description.

[full auto 45]

Murray has some IRA guns. He is also in the great down under.

[MARK2112]

can that gun be imported and registered?

[dalbert]

can that gun be imported and registered?

 

Not to this country...(USA)

 

David

[jpw43]

where is the gun?

The poster is from New Zealand apparently.

 

• Gender:Male
• Location:New Zealand

[laurencen]

^{when the IRA disbanded the weapons and explosives were turned in, if this Thompson is one of those guns I wonder how they ended up over the pond, it was my understanding they were being destroyed}

[765 21D]

Hi Lammerlaw,

 

The 1921 Thompson guns that were smuggled into Ireland in the 1920's and 30's are some of the most historic and interesting of all 1921 Thompson's and they each have a story to tell. These weapons are known in collectors fields as "Irish Swords" and they attract a lot of attention when they are shown on here. Can you post some better photos when you have the time please. You really should pay a visit to tompsongunireland.com as it is a great site with much information on the known history of individual Irish swords. However, here is some information that will be of interest to you.

 

The following 1921 IRA Thompsons are in private collections in New Zealand.

 

Serial Shipped consigned to in 1921 Salesman

 

630 25/5/1921 Captured in Ireland PJ Gentry New York

 

389 18/5/1921 American Rail Express Co., NY G.G Rorke

586 20/5/1921 Captured by the Gardei American Rail Express Co., NY G.G Rorke

708 03/061921 Captured by the Gardei American Rail Express Co., NY G.G Rorke

 

993 03/06/1921 American Rail Express Co., NY G.G Rorke

 

308 11/5/1921 Auto Ordnance for G.G Rorke

 

393 11/05/1921 Auto Ordnance

 

535 20/05/1921 American Rail Express Co., NY

 

592 27/05/1921 G.G Rorke

 

609 25/05/1921 PJ Gentry New York

 

886 27/05/1921 G.G Rorke

 

 

There is no mention of Number 889 being in New Zealand is this new information or could your gun actually be number 389? This particular IRA 1921 is said to have matching butt stock numbers to the serial of the gun?

 

689 6/9-7/16/21 Captured by the RUC I doubt if your Irish sword was one from the North of Ireland as it is not in typical condition for guns found or captured in the North of Ireland.

 

889 26/05/1921 G.G Rorke second shipment.

 

The "Irish Sword" in my post is my own and it is in typical condition for a gun captured in the North of Ireland.

Edited April 14, 2015 by 765 21D

[Hawkeye_Joe]

Murray's Irish Swords: Serial numbers are, from front to back, 708, 586,389 & 993.

 

 

[765 21D]

Murray's Irish Swords: Serial numbers are, from front to back, 708, 586,389 & 993.

Hi Hawkeye,

 

I have seen that photo before and they all look great together, but I am curious about number 389 and I wondered if Murry still owns that IRA Thompson? If he does then we could be dealling with number 689 or 889 and there is very little information on both of those Thompson guns.

 

 

Regards,

 

Dermot

Edited December 12, 2014 by 765 21D

[Hawkeye_Joe]

It's been years since we've heard from Murray.......I don't have a clue about the disposition of his collection.

[765 21D]

It's been years since we've heard from Murray.......I don't have a clue about the disposition of his collection.

Hi Hawkeye,

 

Thanks for your reply. I know I sent him a message in 2013 and got no reply oh well I guess there's no way to confirm anything about his Thompson collection if he does not come on here anymore.

Edited December 14, 2014 by 765 21D

[gunhistorian]

I took a look at the thompson gun ireland.com website. Really fascinating stuff there. Note the tab for serial number 832 on that site. This shows a M1921 that was found in the bottom of a well and partially covered (I guess only partially, because the right side grip is not blackened like the left side of the "pistol" grip)with water. From that photo -- presuming someone didn't put a "NOS" magazine in the gun (which is a possibility) -- it looks like there are no holes in the magazine. This might reflect the "British" desert magazine with the holes soldered or does it indicate that early 20-round mags were made without holes? From the photo, it is impossible (for MY eyes) to pick out any change in color where the holes would have been soldered. SO! Did the Irish guns have "hole-less" 20-round mags shipped with them?

[765 21D]

I took a look at the thompson gun ireland.com website. Really fascinating stuff there. Note the tab for serial number 832 on that site. This shows a M1921 that was found in the bottom of a well and partially covered (I guess only partially, because the right side grip is not blackened like the left side of the "pistol" grip)with water. From that photo -- presuming someone didn't put a "NOS" magazine in the gun (which is a possibility) -- it looks like there are no holes in the magazine. This might reflect the "British" desert magazine with the holes soldered or does it indicate that early 20-round mags were made without holes? From the photo, it is impossible (for MY eyes) to pick out any change in color where the holes would have been soldered. SO! Did the Irish guns have "hole-less" 20-round mags shipped with them?

Hi gunhistorian,

 

While it is possible that some prototype mags went with the late type model of 1919 Thompson's to Ireland, all of the "Irish Swords" I have seen have blank production mags (No patent dates) or the patent date mags, so the answer is no, but 832 has a mag with no witness holes as can be seen in the posted photos, but it must be fairly unique to that particular IRA Thompson? Credit for photos goes to thompsongunireland.com with thanks.

 

[

Edited April 14, 2015 by 765 21D

[gunhistorian]

Thanks for posting the photos. I'm not particularly good at doing stuff like that. Also, thanks for your reply. I wonder what the magazine shown with the gun really is. . . (as per my question above). Probably a replacement for the original magazine (if any) found with the gun as I am not sure a "sheet metal" magazine (whether stick or drum) would survive in the dampness, particularly given the condition of the gun as found. Buttstock and foregrip might have been replaced, too, comparing them with the coloration of the frame grip. . . Still: what breed of magazine is that? LOL

[765 21D]

Thanks for posting the photos. I'm not particularly good at doing stuff like that. Also, thanks for your reply. I wonder what the magazine shown with the gun really is. . . (as per my question above). Probably a replacement for the original magazine (if any) found with the gun as I am not sure a "sheet metal" magazine (whether stick or drum) would survive in the dampness, particularly given the condition of the gun as found. Buttstock and foregrip might have been replaced, too, comparing them with the coloration of the frame grip. . . Still: what breed of magazine is that? LOL

Hi gunhistorian,

 

The magazine in question does not look like any early prototype for the model of 1919 that I have seen, so it could have been made for number 832 but the only real way to find out is to view the gun and magazine. The buttstock is a replaced one and the front pistol grip has been rubbed down, but it might be original to the gun. it could be a magazine made for the gun by the IRA but I doubt if that was/is the case, so who knows?

[giantpanda4]

There are photos of the IRA with Thompsons taken in the 1970's. So when and where was this gun unearthed? Might easily have been GI stuff (I know - no holes), or even some contemporary mag put in it.

[765 21D]

Hi giantpanda,

 

The IRA trained with and used the smuggled 1921's 28's and M1/M1A1's right up to the 1980's. Thompson number 832 was found at the bottom of a well, but I don't know when and how it was found. We do know it was an East Side gun and that it was shipped on the 07 June 1921 to the American Railway Express Company and smuggled to Ireland after the shipment was released in 1925. The gun resides at the Irish Army Regimental Museum and I think that is in Dublin, so it's one that stayed in the South of Ireland, but it could have been hidden when De Valera outlawed the IRA in 1936. However, it's well known that the IRA were training with the 1921's during the so called emergency period. I really am not sure what is going on with the XX round magazine for this IRA 1921 Thompson, but like I said it would appear to be unique to this gun.

 

Here are two more "Irish Swords" number 212 and number 1234. The first Thompson number 212 was an East Side gun and was shipped 6 May 1921 to George Gordon Rorke with the fake American Railway Express Address.

 

"Irish Sword" number 212 Note the lower is not original to the gun and is from a 1928A1 with a British modified buttstock.

 

 

 

 

The next "Irish Sword" is number 1234 and it was shipped on 24 Aug 1923 to M. Fitzgerald Co. New York City NY. This gun was part of a shippment of 300 Thompsons, but it was ordered one month after the civil war in Ireland ended.

 

 

 

Close up view of defaced serial number

 

 

Edited April 14, 2015 by 765 21D

[giantpanda4]

All great stuff! Thanks for posting those pics and info!

-keep it coming...!

[irishbayo]

Hi guys

I attach pics of the magazine in question ...it has been with the gun for a long time.

It appears to me to be 'home made' although well done.

The XX magazines with the IRA purchases from 1921 were unmarked.

food for thought.

Michael

[ron_brock]

Michael,

 

Could you take a photo looking down on the rib that slides into the gun? I am curious how this mag was produced, if similar to later mags or assembled like other prototype mags we have seen.

Thanks

Ron