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British Army WW2 Small Arms Training Pamphlet 21


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#21 Mk VII

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 04:40 PM

Warrant officers from the Small Arms School Corps usually posed for the photographs in the official manuals, as one did for the 1940 edition.


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#22 rpbcps

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 08:55 AM

Most of the English editions can still be obtained without too much difficulty, but the 1955 reprint is scarce - I have never seen one.  It was still labelled as being in the Small Arms Training series, despite being packaged in the same blue card covers as the post-war Infantry Training series which replaced the SATs.
 
Those familiar with Bisley Camp will recognise the Army Target Shooting Club building in the background, with the 'subject' standing on the motor track which goes past the Sit Perpetuum hut and the Marylebone R & P C clubhouse.
 
Although the SAT series was labelled as Volume I, there never was a Volume II. The 'odd man out' was Small Arms Ranges - Layout, Safety and Equipment (1945) which was packaged as 'Volume V, War Supplement' to jive with Volume Five of Small Arms Training, 1931, the only part of this book which remained in force through most of the war and which dealt with range construction and safety templates.  The peacetime safety regulations had to be placed in abeyance for much of the war to permit enough ranges to be constructed for the greatly expanded military. 

 

"Those familiar with Bisley Camp will recognise the Army Target Shooting Club building in the background".

 

Reading that again, reminds me of the classic question “what colour is the boat house in Hereford?"


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#23 Taliaferro

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 07:12 PM

Here are a Australian version of the Rifle and Bayonet

Attached File  scan 2.jpg   95.95K   6 downloads

 

On the Thompson Mech Made Easy look at page 32 there are different printing dates.

Attached File  scan0023.jpg   79.17K   6 downloads


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#24 Taliaferro

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 07:19 PM

More manuals

Attached File  scan0025.jpg   108.56K   4 downloads


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#25 steve1973

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 03:22 AM

Attached File  EPSON041_1.jpg   171.24K   6 downloadsAttached File  EPSON039_1.jpg   149.41K   6 downloads

 

I have this small booklet, its missing the cover and first couple pages. Approximately 62 pages.

Can anyone tell me how old it is?


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#26 rpbcps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 04:13 AM

attachicon.gif EPSON041_1.jpgattachicon.gif EPSON039_1.jpg

 

I have this small booklet, its missing the cover and first couple pages. Approximately 62 pages.

Can anyone tell me how old it is?

Steve,

That looks like the Auto-Ordnance Corporations Edition of 1940 Handbook of the Thompson Submachine gun Model of 1928, which has seen better days.

Attached File  1940 AOC 1928 Handbook NY Address.JPG   149K   3 downloads

Stay safe

 

Richard


Edited by rpbcps, 27 May 2018 - 08:50 AM.

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#27 rpbcps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 05:44 AM

While looking through my AOC Handbook collection to find a match with Steve's handbook for the above post, I found a Canadian match book cover inside one of them, which I had forgotten about.

 

Attached File  Canadian TSMG Bookmatch cover.JPG   17.03K   6 downloads

 

Just scanned it now, I guess I should take the time to catalogue my collection, one of these days.

 

On more than one occasion in the past, while away from home, I have bought an item I already have, including a 2nd copy of the old TSMG article from the Oct.1920 issue of the Scientific American "A Pocket Machine Gun" by Capt. E.C. Crossman.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard


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#28 Taliaferro

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 07:12 AM

LDV Home Guard manuals. More interesting paper.

Attached File  BRIT HG MANUALS001 copy.jpg   281.69K   8 downloads


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#29 rpbcps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:44 AM

LDV Home Guard manuals. More interesting paper.

attachicon.gif BRIT HG MANUALS001 copy.jpg

 

Great additions, 11th edition marked on one, so plenty more out there to find?

 

Interesting enough, on the cover, it says one of the Authors of the Small arms Manual was Brigadier J A Barlow  of the West Yorkshire Regt. That is the Regiment my grandfather served with, although when that book was published, he may have been with the BEF in France or in Germany as a POW, having been captured close to Dunkirk, depending in the date in the Manual.


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#30 rpbcps

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 04:05 AM

This morning I found some photos and information in my 'inbox' from David Albert, concerning the New Zealand and Italian SAT 21's and also more information about the "Know your Weapons No.1 - Tommy Gun Rifle and Bayonet", published by Nicholson & Watson,in the commercial manual post.

 

So he whet my appetite and I have edited the original posts, adding the photos and information provided by David, hopefully to whet yours too!

 

Stays safe

 

Richard


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#31 AlanDavid

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 04:19 AM

In post #19 the photos in the first version of The Thompson Submachine Gun Mechanism Made Easy by Gale & Polden show two different TSMG's being fired from the shoulder. One has no Cutts compensater and a drum magazine, the other photo has a gun with a compensater and 20 round mag.

Perhaps the gun without a compensater was a Colt gun? Pity these pam's are undated.

 

Regardds

 

AlanD

Sydney


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#32 rpbcps

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 05:00 AM

In post #19 the photos in the first version of The Thompson Submachine Gun Mechanism Made Easy by Gale & Polden show two different TSMG's being fired from the shoulder. One has no Cutts compensater and a drum magazine, the other photo has a gun with a compensater and 20 round mag.

Perhaps the gun without a compensater was a Colt gun? Pity these pam's are undated.

 

Regardds

 

AlanD

Sydney

 

Alan,

Well spotted, I thought I had been good at identifying and noting all the differences, but obviously for that detail, I couldn't see the forest for the trees, although it was in plain sight.

 

It is possible that this example is one of the early Savage guns that AOC supplied without compensators, at the request of the British looking to reduce costs. In Oct 1940 an order was placed by the British for 27,000 Thompson without compensators and there are several photos of TSMGs without Compensators being used, by both commando and Home guard units. 

 

Attached File  cmd_norge.jpg   43.46K   5 downloads      Attached File  6th Order TSMG.jpg   27.29K   7 downloads 

 

As stated in the original post above, Tom Davis provides details on the Model of 1928s bought by the British without compensators in his book, 'Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story', a recommend read for anyone interested in the early WW2 history of the TSMG and you'll find more photos of TSMGs without compensators in there.

 

​Then again, circumstantial evidence in the Gale & Polden booklets you refer too, may support your assumption, as the markings on the Thompson photographed on page 9 appears to be Colt's Patent Firearms Mfg Co etc. and the photo on page 25 is damning support for your argument.

 

 

Attached File  Thompson SMG Mechanism made Easy V2 Page 9.JPG   113.7K   8 downloads  Attached File  Thompson SMG Mechanism made Easy V2 Page 25.JPG   104.57K   7 downloads

 

Stay safe

 

​Richard 


Edited by rpbcps, 17 February 2018 - 05:07 PM.

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#33 TD.

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 01:15 PM

The British Admiralty Book of Reference like the one Taliaferro cited in an above post (B.R. 247) are very difficult to find (at least for me). One of the more interesting Admiralty books I have found is B.R. 646, discussed on page 139 of Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. Shooting a Thompson guns at aerial targets sounds like a lot fun if the targets are not shooting back at you! 

 

Attached File  R00137 - crop resize.jpg   210.01K   6 downloads     Attached File  R00137 - crop resize - Copy.jpg   247.38K   5 downloads     

 

 


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#34 rpbcps

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 01:31 PM

Having just received the 1940 edition of the Australian SAT Pamphlet 21 in the mail today, I have added more information from that to the original post, together with photos and have also added more information concerning the British 1940 Edition SAT Pamphlet 21 Amendment No.2 dated 8th October 1941, again with relevant photos.

 

Stay safe

Richard 


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#35 rpbcps

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 10:51 AM

The British Admiralty Book of Reference like the one Taliaferro cited in an above post (B.R. 247) are very difficult to find (at least for me). One of the more interesting Admiralty books I have found is B.R. 646, discussed on page 139 of Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. Shooting a Thompson guns at aerial targets sounds like a lot fun if the targets are not shooting back at you! 

 

attachicon.gif R00137 - crop resize.jpg     attachicon.gif R00137 - crop resize - Copy.jpg     

Tom,

I guess the aerial targets would have to be flying very low for a Thompson to be effective in an anti aircraft role?

 

​Stay safe

 

Richard


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#36 rpbcps

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Posted 21 February 2018 - 05:15 PM

In post #19 the photos in the first version of The Thompson Submachine Gun Mechanism Made Easy by Gale & Polden show two different TSMG's being fired from the shoulder. One has no Cutts compensater and a drum magazine, the other photo has a gun with a compensater and 20 round mag.

Perhaps the gun without a compensater was a Colt gun? Pity these pam's are undated.

 

Regardds

 

AlanD

Sydney

Alan,

On a similar note, I have just noticed, and not sure how many times I have looked at these pamphlets over the years, that the photo of the TSMG shown above in Plate 1, in the 2nd 1941 issue of the 1940 dated Pamphlet, appears to be a Colt Thompson. Looking at the markings on the rear of the receiver, they appear to be 'Colts Patent Firearms Mfg Co' etc.

 

Attached File  CPFMCo Markings 1940 editon SAT.JPG   163.33K   7 downloads

 

Stay safe

Richard


Edited by rpbcps, 22 February 2018 - 05:29 AM.

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#37 AlanDavid

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Posted 23 February 2018 - 10:24 PM

Yes I have noticed this previously. It would be nice to find a higher resolution copy of the photo where the serial number can be read.

 

In one of the commercialy produced booklets that were printed in the war on the TSMG, (cant remember which one now), there is a very clear photo of the markings on a Colt made gun, showing the model as 1928. This actual gun is in a private collection in London and I have examined it and taken photos, it is marked Model 1921, the photo in the booklet has been expertly air brushed to change the model to 1928, in keeping with  the model that was actually being issued.

 

I did post a thread about this a few years ago,

 

Regards

 

AlanD

Sydney


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#38 rpbcps

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 04:20 PM

Alan,

Indeed, it is in Gale & Poldens "The Thompson Submachine Gun - Mechanism Made Easy", I have edited post #19 with that information and added photo.

 

Please pass a note onto the current owner, if he ever wanted to sell it, you know an interested party....it would be a nice example to see in 'person'.

 

Stay safe

Richard


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#39 rpbcps

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 08:59 AM

Having just opened my mail after an absence from home of almost five weeks, amongst the bills etc., there were a few interesting items, including two more SAT Pamphlets. Another version of the 1942 dated SAT Pamphlet 21, (Printed by the Printing and Stationary Service, M.E.F), and also a 1945 dated SAT Pamphlet 11 (India), so I have added these additions to my collection, to the original post, together with photos. 

 

Stay safe

Richard 


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