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BPP HK23EK finally works


Got Uzi
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I want to say the cyclic rate is 900 rpm or so

 

The things I had to fix after spending over 25 hours working on it-

 

Create clearance for the bolt to pass through before locking up due to an alignment issue

 

Polish all the internals as there were rough edges galore

 

Take care of burrs that were causing internal binding issues

 

Machine a new feed mech guide and fit it to the gun so it has full engagement and not coming out of the feed way track in the bolt

 

There were other smaller issues I addressed along this journey, but I can say that it was defiantly a learning experience. The gun is a BPP and the feed mech is a Micheals Machine. When I inquired for help all I got was well its the other guys parts that are causing the issues and it became the blame game with each wanting the gun shipped to them so they could mess with it. That would have cost me untold amounts of money. I guess being a lowly dumb machinist instead of a known gun builder makes me unqualified to do the work I did....oh wait Im also a Class III MFG also so I guess Im allowed to do what I am.

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Might be tough to blame feed mech problems on either one? The way I understood it, some other party makes them, and other parts? Things may have changed, but that's what I was told back in the day. Any upside to the BPP gun vs. MM?

 

Does BPP sell conversion parts? I have a legit 21e that I'd like to get 23e conversion parts for? I was told MM stuff does not fit German 21e spec receivers?

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BPP sells conversion parts as far as I know.

 

Im not sure of an advantage to one or the other. It literally seems like they both say they make better guns and that the other guy is a hack (this is my opinion but it sure has the optics of it)

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There are a lot more MM guns out there than BPP.

Id guess at least 10x more - maybe even a lot higher.

 

Fwiw,

I have both an MM21e/23 & an MM21ek/23ek.

No complaints about the guns or customer service.

Ive never dealt with BPP, but If I wanted another 21/23

Id go to MM or TSC...

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Makes you want a HK23E in 5.56 like this one?:

 

WTS: Transferable HK23E $40k - NFA Market Board - Sturmgewehr.com Forums

 

I would not want to have to deal with any functioning issues, however. Need to study it more.

 

Edit: About four years ago, I bought a book on the MP5 from a Board member, and also studied the HKPRO forum some. Because I would want to move the sear or trigger pack to different host guns, like the MP5 and the HK23E, my understanding is I would need to have the registered sear or trigger pack rather than a registered receiver. Let me know if there are other good sources of information on learning about the HK firearms and options for full auto.

Edited by Robert Henley
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Makes you want a HK23E in 5.56 like this one?:

 

WTS: Transferable HK23E $40k - NFA Market Board - Sturmgewehr.com Forums

 

I would not want to have to deal with any functioning issues, however. Need to study it more.

 

Edit: About four years ago, I bought a book on the MP5 from a Board member, and also studied the HKPRO forum some. Because I would want to move the sear or trigger pack to different host guns, like the MP5 and the HK23E, my understanding is I would need to have the registered sear or trigger pack rather than a registered receiver. Let me know if there are other good sources of information on learning about the HK firearms and options for full auto.

 

If you have registered receiver the only changes you can make are to the gun itself which are fairly permanent. The gun you linked to likely started out as a semi HK91, converted registered to full auto before 1986. Fast forward to today when parts are somewhat more available and it was cut and modified into a 21/23 series mostly (unlikely it is fully 23e converted to exact specs since we know MM feed mechs don't fit/function in original 21e's for some reason?) by cutting and welding. As an RR gun that could have the correct 4 pos. pack put in, but as it sits for sale it does not.

 

Trigger packs are nice, but it takes some major mods if you want to convert them to a 4 position pack. The supposed advantage on some of them is that they utilize cheap (for now) run of the mill full auto parts. I may have broken one hammer.....ever and the supposed re-timed hammers are available off the shelf these days, if you think you need one based on forum postings.

 

Sears are nice and are mostly portable, but not without work. There may be legal pitfalls to owning multiple "sear ready" trigger packs awaiting your moving a sear over. If you're going between a MP5K and an MP5 you just take the whole pack out and move it to a new housing and put it in the gun....easy. If you think your going from a K gun to an HK23, there's ejector swapping and trip lever differences that mean you have to take the pack apart. I find even swapping a sear into a different housing is not a "field" operation. I can do it in a couple minutes with the proper tools, but like any other small part handling outdoors.... grass, concrete cracks, sand, dirt seem to swallow pins, ejector springs etc. so it's not exactly a "range friendly" operation.

 

I have all three options and IMHO the sear is the way to go, unless you find a great deal on a RR or trigger pack, which I did, but all things equal you want a sear. I'm no HK expert by any means like the guys on hkpro, but I do have all the stuff, worked on and repaired all of it up to PZF3's so I have a bit of experience. I ended up buying more sears because really, it's sort of a PITA to move them around. Of all the HK stuff I have (no pistols unless you count sp89's), the 21 series requires a LOT of TLC to keep them running and is the worst of the product line. They are the Ferrari of the gun world, sexy, desirable, but require hours of shop time for every hour on the road. Ferrari parts are easier to find....and priced about the same as HK21e parts.

 

After messing will all of that, I guess I see why subconsciously I gravitate to a sten if I just feel the need to shoot something, knowing that if it breaks it will never take more than an hour and $100 to fix. The spare parts bin, accessories, and HK21e lafette is well over 20K. HTH

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Thanks HTH. I've been working on learning about HK FA for awhile. I may have more questions as I get deeper into it.

 

I thought the following three videos were good along with the two HKPro threads on sears:

 

Transferable HK Sear, MP5 and HK51 Overview - Bing video

 

Swapping a Transferable HK Sear Pack Between Host Guns - Bing video

 

Top 3 Favorite Full Auto HK Sear Host Guns - Bing video

 

Heckler and Koch Sear FAQ - Class 3 Firearms - AR15 AK47 Gun Forums (hk94.com)

 

(1) Info/Pics of Different Manufacturers Registered HK Trigger Packs, Sears an Housings | HKPRO Forums

 

I definitely like the four position (safe, semi, 3 round burst, and full auto) and the ambidextrous controls given I'm left handed. I'll have to figure out which sear to look for going forward.

 

I like the following gun that Ruben has but I live in Florida:

 

HK MP5A2 & A3, Fleming Sear in 4 Position Pack Pack/Dyer, Excellent - NFA Market Board - Sturmgewehr.com Forums

 

I have a C&R STEN which I love, but of course it didn't cost anywhere near what a HK sear will cost. I've been partial to HK for a long time, however, as I have three P7's I've had a long time, two PSPs and one P7M8.

 

Thanks again for the information,

 

Robert

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  • 2 years later...

I was looking at what looked like a nice H&K MP5 with a registered trigger pack that was $40K.

First, what is the going price for a trigger pack MP-5?

Second, what do I need to look at or consider as it relates to a trigger pack gun?

Third, I guess a trigger pack can be moved from one compatible gun to another?

Any other thoughts appreciated.

Robert

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Fleming, Qualified and S&H are your top tier sears.  Also a DLO or Neal Smith trigger box is a good thing too.  

 

A trigger pack or sear alone is $40k-$42.5k alone.  There are a few things to look out for when looking at sear host guns.

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"Of all the HK stuff I have (no pistols unless you count sp89's), the 21 series requires a LOT of TLC to keep them running and is the worst of the product line. They are the Ferrari of the gun world, sexy, desirable, but require hours of shop time for every hour on the road. Ferrari parts are easier to find....and priced about the same as HK21e parts."

^^^^  THIS IS SO TRUE !!! ^^^^   -- Johnson you hit the nail right on the head!

And this is why you don't see a lot of guys at the range blasting away with a HK 21 or a 23 -- the last one I saw was at the Big Sandy Shoot maybe 4 or 5 years ago.

They are VERY high maintenance guns and have to be "tuned" regularly.

The feed mechanism alone is ridiculously complicated and it all has to be right to work properly - total PITA! 

So in the safe mine sit, and I almost never take them out to the range to fire them anymore.

I have too many other reliable and much easier to maintain machineguns to shoot. 

 

Edited by maxfaxdude
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7 hours ago, Robert Henley said:

I was looking at what looked like a nice H&K MP5 with a registered trigger pack that was $40K.

First, what is the going price for a trigger pack MP-5?

Second, what do I need to look at or consider as it relates to a trigger pack gun?

Third, I guess a trigger pack can be moved from one compatible gun to another?

Any other thoughts appreciated.

Robert

$40K on a Neal Smith or DLO pack is a fair price and caliber is not really applicable.   

When changing calibers (from hand gun to rifle) with a pack - the ejector and hammer spring have to be changed.

In nearly all cases, the trigger pack constitutes the machinegun and can be moved from one gun to another.  

By "trigger pack gun" - I'm assuming you're talking about a "host" gun.  The bolt carrier has to be in "full auto" configuration, either welded then ground down or a genuine FA bolt carrier installed to function properly.   

If you have an SBR configured host gun just make sure that's it papered with the ATF that way if you take the pack out of the host you're still legal. 

Edited by maxfaxdude
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/26/2021 at 12:58 PM, Got Uzi said:

I want to say the cyclic rate is 900 rpm or so

 

The things I had to fix after spending over 25 hours working on it-

 

Create clearance for the bolt to pass through before locking up due to an alignment issue

 

Polish all the internals as there were rough edges galore

 

Take care of burrs that were causing internal binding issues

 

Machine a new feed mech guide and fit it to the gun so it has full engagement and not coming out of the feed way track in the bolt

 

There were other smaller issues I addressed along this journey, but I can say that it was defiantly a learning experience. The gun is a BPP and the feed mech is a Micheals Machine. When I inquired for help all I got was well its the other guys parts that are causing the issues and it became the blame game with each wanting the gun shipped to them so they could mess with it. That would have cost me untold amounts of money. I guess being a lowly dumb machinist instead of a known gun builder makes me unqualified to do the work I did....oh wait Im also a Class III MFG also so I guess Im allowed to do what I am.

You sir, are an artist! Beautiful!

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