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Gangster Gun, Serial # Revealed !


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#21 ghostsoldier

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 08:04 PM

This whole episode is historic as hell....I'm glad to be able to share in it's revelation here. Awesome stuff. :)

 

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#22 OCM

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 08:38 PM

Yes, a lot to do here first. I've found some errors in Gordon's book , which happens in ongoing research. This may or may not come into play here .

Need way more evidence here from the FBI files or whomever was in charge of the weaponry.  

 

As/B4 ( a known Dillinger sign off)

 

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#23 arrgh1934

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 10:21 PM

Gordon would have loved this.Im sure he is smiling.RIP my friend
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#24 TM76

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 07:29 AM

What a great find and and its not so much the money value , but the History of this find related to Baby Face Nelson , congratulation .

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#25 OCM

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 09:31 AM

Maybe a little breakthrough here: Joe Pinkston's well documented book, one of the VERY best on the subject, states that when the volley was over and daylight came , the Feds moved in and recovered six (6)  machine guns, 12 shotguns, 5 bullet proof vests and three women . Nothing about any pistols, but we know there were many. Joe's book was published back in 63 I think, and he did a huge research on Dillinger, owned the famous Dillinger Museum in Nashville, IN. He was considered by many ( including me ) the world's top authority on Dillinger-

 

 We know Dillinger took # 7387 with him, the Crown Point Thompson ( Porter County Sheriff ) . There were 7 members of the Dillinger gang there, 10 with the molls. Almost positive now the weapons pictured are just the ones they found in the 3-4 cars the gang parked in the garage. We know that.

 

This means there are  4 other Thompsons, from the Little Bohemia battle,  unaccounted for....................at least not pictured here. I'm guessing these were just set up pictures for the press, lot of people showed up for this new Dillinger circus. Press ate up the FBI .

 

So, are we now looking at Colt Chopper's Thompson # 5487. Chances are coming up better & better every day.

 

I'm concerned the FBI files don't exist- In the huge FBI Dillinger files, Part 20 is missing, this would be the Little Bohemia era. I know Hans had been looking for it in the past. Little Bo was a bad FBI experience, couple innocent people were shot by them ! Maybe Part 20 is gone forever ?

 

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#26 dalbert

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 09:52 AM

OK, I have clearance to post the video that I took of the serial number unveiling.  It is in 3 parts.  Part one has an introduction, and shows us removing the barrel.  Part two shows the grip mount being removed, and the hidden serial number being exposed for the first time since 1921.  The third video shows Colt Chopper and me looking at Gordon's book for the serial number information.

 

Gangster Thompson Original Serial Number Revealed - Part 1

 

Gangster Thompson Original Serial Number Revealed - Part 2

 

Gangster Thompson Original Serial Number Revealed - Part 3

 

 

Enjoy!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com


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#27 OCM

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:49 AM

An historical moment. Wonder if the ghost of Lebman & Nelson were there.


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#28 shadycon

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 12:13 PM

Thank you for sharing these video's.


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#29 shadycon

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 12:13 PM

Thank you for sharing these video's.
Still happening. One click to post and 30 sec. later screen adds second post?

Edited by shadycon, 25 September 2016 - 12:16 PM.

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#30 mgvince

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 01:28 PM

This is fantastic!!   To own a piece of history like that must be a rush!

So many more discoveries to make!


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#31 dalbert

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 02:01 PM

Thank you for sharing these video's.
Still happening. One click to post and 30 sec. later screen adds second post?

 

You may have something going on with your computer.

 

David


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#32 22plinker

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 05:40 PM

It's neat watching history unfold...great that there is so much research to help validate the guns history .


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#33 Got Uzi

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 06:34 AM

This is very cool.  

 

I bet Frank G is wishing he had done some research into this gun instead of making a quick buck off of it.  Realistically IF this turns out to indeed be the gun in the Little Bo pictures-what would it be worth given the history behind it?  How can you put a price on something like that?


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#34 Colt Chopper

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 07:36 AM

FOIA being mailed off today.

 

Frank would have had no way of knowing without removing the barrel, hopefully he will assist with providing some info of the past caretaker, I have my fingers crossed !!!!


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#35 gijive

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 08:41 AM

I was playing around today and looking at the photos Colt Chopper put out and compared the was the grind was shaped on both. From what I can tell, it is shaped the same. I would just about put money that the gun that is the same one, the one closest to the 1907 Winchester.

 

Mike,

 

That's what I was thinking.  The grind marks could almost be looked at like a fingerprint.  I would be interested in gijive's opinion on this.

 

Colt Chopper,

 

Could you take photos of it at the same angles in the Little Bohemia photos?

 

David Albert

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Dave and others,

 

Obviously, Colt Chopper's "Chopper" is a Lebman gun and the photos of at least two of the the guns recovered at Little Bohemia were Lebman guns according to Sandy's information.  The method of obliterating the serial number on the guns is unique in that most defaced serial numbers encountered have a deeper divot where the numbers were ground off.  For example, St. Valentine's Day Massacre gun # 7580 and three others I have witnessed that were taken from Peter Von Frantzius' shop and are currently in the possession of the Chicago Police Department.  Von Frantius' gunsmith used a different grinding method than Lebman, which could be construed as a signature.

 

Although, the Lebman guns exhibit the same signature grinding, making a positive comparison from the available photos would not be possible.  The guns exhibit the same "class" characteristics of the grinding method, but the individual characteristics of the grinding marks would have to be microscopically examined and that is not possible from the available pictures.  I am not trying to dampen anyone's enthusiasm here, the gun is certainly a Lebman gun and may have passed through the Dillinger gang's hands at some point, but I don't think it is likely the gun was recovered at Little Bohemia.  My reasoning for this is that I believe the FBI would have confiscated all the guns recovered at Little Bohemia for testing at their crime laboratory, firing test bullets to possibly link them with unsolved homicides.  One of their Agents was killed in the Little Bohemia debacle, I don;t think they would have turned over any of the confiscated guns to the local law enforcement agencies after the shooting.

 

I think a more likely scenario is that the gun was abandoned after an aborted Bank Robbery or in an abandoned get away vehicle or hideout, when it was recovered by a local law enforcement agency who kept it for their own purposes and registered it properly.  Defaced serial number guns were always registered with a new IRS issued number.  The FBI only recently returned confiscated guns to agencies after decades of retaining them in their laboratory.  I don't believe they were in the habit of releasing firearms during the Hoover era, when this gun was obviously registered by someone.

 

I think finding the agency that sold or consigned it to the dealer that Colt Chopper purchased it from will be the key to uncovering the mystery.


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#36 timkel

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 09:13 AM

Great history. What a find, This is what sets the Colts apart from the rest.


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#37 OCM

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 09:45 AM

What Chuck says is very true, since we believe the Lebman guns were most likely shipped to the Nelson group in St Paul, whether this one made it to Little Bohemia lodge via Nelson is still unclear. There is the possibility Carroll, Hamilton or possibly Riley took off with the Thompson and it went ???.

If what Joe Pinkston wrote about 6 Thompsons recovered after the battle is still yet to be determined by some FBI files.  

We need further provenance - FBI confirmation, IRS registration something like that.

As I said before it took 4 of us ( 3 in law enforcement)  over a year just to track down just 9 Dillinger Thompsons.

I'm sure we'll get there with Chopper's Tommy, patience......

I'm personally leaning strongly toward it's a Nelson Thompson, but we shall have to find out.

At this time, I'm stalled on this project. FOIA or agency confirmation needed. It's really in Colt Chopper's hands now.

Super fun project for me, taxing on this old noggin.   

 

 

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#38 Paladin601

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 10:43 AM

I was playing around today and looking at the photos Colt Chopper put out and compared the was the grind was shaped on both. From what I can tell, it is shaped the same. I would just about put money that the gun that is the same one, the one closest to the 1907 Winchester.

 

Mike,

 

That's what I was thinking.  The grind marks could almost be looked at like a fingerprint.  I would be interested in gijive's opinion on this.

 

Colt Chopper,

 

Could you take photos of it at the same angles in the Little Bohemia photos?

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

Probably done on a pedestal grinder with a 1 1/2 " inch widthe wheel. no safety shield back in the day. Strange they left the bare metal.

 

Great story !!!!


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#39 OCM

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 05:43 PM

Just got off the phone with an excited Colt Chopper, looks like he found the FBI file stating that his gun was part of a shipment to St Paul from Lebman  to Jimmy Williams. Everybody knows who Jimmy Williams was !!!! Real name was Lester Gillis. Hint: part of the Dillinger gang....

He can come on and go into details.

 

Congratulations. Amazing find.

 

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#40 Sig

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 06:32 PM

I have not weighed into this thread yet but after my chat with Colt Chopper yesterday I want to say he has really done the research.  He has more work to do but he really did a great job with the material he had at hand so far.  Kudos to another Thompson researcher, Colt Chopper, also caretaker of a very interesting piece of history.


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