Colt Thompsons in World War II Service

[TD.]

This subject has been the point of many debates over the years. Some enthusiasts believe that thousands of Colt manufactured Thompsons serviced with the British military during World War II. I debunked that claim in Great Britain – The Tommy Gun Story. However, the less informed, based on inaccurate reporting over the years, still believe Colt manufactured Thompsons played a huge roll during World War II.

 

Let’s look at some facts. Colt only manufactured 15,000 Thompson guns. If all of these guns saw service in World War II the total would still be statistically insignificant to the 1.5 to 2 million Thompson guns manufactured by Savage Arms and Auto-Ordnance-Bridgeport from 1940 to 1944.

Well, how many of these 15,000 guns actually served:

We know the US military acquired over 1700 Colt era Thompsons starting with the US Marines in 1926 and ending with the June 30, 1939 order for 951 guns. We also know the French government purchased 3000 Colt manufactured guns that were delivered before France fell to Germany. That is 4700 guns so let’s add in another 300 for miscellaneous small orders or other acquisitions (confiscations?) and the number is approximately 5000. Is that number statistically significant?

One possible source I could never document was the British military using captured Irish Republican Army (IRA) Thompson guns in service. Again, even if this occurred, it would not affect the totals mentioned above to any great degree.

All comments welcome!

 

[Big Al]

I have seen time and again a brief snippet of footage of a US Army soldier firing a Colt Model 1921A with a vertical foregrip in various documentaries. I think a friend posted a screenshot in a Facebook group we're in. I'll try to find it.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

However, the less informed, based on inaccurate reporting over the years, still believe Colt manufactured Thompsons played a huge roll during World War II.

 

Not a "huge" role, but a role nevertheless. To suggest that the Colt TSMG history was frozen between 1939 and 1945 is inaccurate. Did you ever figure out about those British marked Savage/AO TSMGs that were never sent overseas?

[TD.]

Big Al,

I would very much like to see that picture. Keep in mind the US Marine Corps purchased a lot of Model of 1921A Colt Thompsons with vertical fore grips. We don't know if all were later equipped with a compensator or converted to the 28 Navy style. There is a picture in the first issue of American Thunder on page 59 of an American soldier with what appears to be a 1921A Colt without the butt stock. Without more information, I would guess this was one of the French Colt's.

 

Arthur,

I agree about the Colt's having a role in World War II, especially at the beginning of the war. As you noted in another thread, quite a few were onboard US Naval vessels and probably served well after the war ended. I am not sure what you mean by the British marked Savage/AOB TSMGs. Do you mean the British marked Colt guns?

[rpbcps]

I have seen time and again a brief snippet of footage of a US Army soldier firing a Colt Model 1921A with a vertical foregrip in various documentaries. I think a friend posted a screenshot in a Facebook group we're in. I'll try to find it.

 

Big Al,

I have a photo, which I believe is a US GI taken in August 1944, with a Model of 1921, coincidently the same month Paris was liberated. I always believed this was a French contract Thompson that the GI in the photo had come across.

 

Maybe someone can identify his unit from the 'K' marked on his helmet?

 

Stay safe

Richard

[Big Al]

This is the image I referred to earlier. It was said that this footage was shot in North Africa. The Thompson in the background might also be a Colt, judging by the rounded end of the horizontal foregrip.

[rpbcps]

 

I have seen time and again a brief snippet of footage of a US Army soldier firing a Colt Model 1921A with a vertical foregrip in various documentaries. I think a friend posted a screenshot in a Facebook group we're in. I'll try to find it.

 

Big Al,

I have a photo, which I believe is a US GI taken in August 1944, with a Model of 1921, coincidently the same month Paris was liberated. I always believed this was a French contract Thompson that the GI in the photo had come across.

 

Maybe someone can identify his unit from the 'K' marked on his helmet?

 

Stay safe

Richard

garnier_aug_44.jpg

 

My old eyes must be playing up, looking at that photo again, it is the number '13' on the helmet, not a letter 'K'....

[buzz]

Thanks TD

 

Excellent information, as always

Edited February 22, 2017 by buzz

[Merry Ploughboy]

The major role that the Colt made 1921s had in WWII is that the Model 1921 was the father to the 1928 and grandfather to the M1/M1A1. Without the 1921s, there would not have been the progeny. Sort of like if the Terminator would have killed Sarah Connor.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

The major role that the Colt made 1921s had in WWII is that the Model 1921 was the father to the 1928 and grandfather to the M1/M1A1. Without the 1921s, there would not have been the progeny. Sort of like if the Terminator would have killed Sarah Connor.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

Amazing how the same 15,000 Colt TSMGs accounted for the MODEL 1921, MODEL 1927 & MODEL 1928 Navy. Maguire's AOC had the machines Colt used moved to the Savage Utica, New York plant to produce the Savage U.S. MODEL 1928 A1. That makes Colt's TSMG connection to WWII rather central.

 

To TD's point, 1/3 of the 15,000 Colt TSMGs served overseas in WWII. That number is indeed dwarfed by the nearly 1.8 million Savage/AO total production, but 1/3 of the total production of a 20 year-old weapon design being utilized in WWII is certainly significant to those Colt employees who saw the results of their work representing America's only smg available to the Allies when Schleswig-Holstein opened fire on the Polish garrison of the Westerplatte Fort, Danzig .

[dalbert]

 

The major role that the Colt made 1921s had in WWII is that the Model 1921 was the father to the 1928 and grandfather to the M1/M1A1. Without the 1921s, there would not have been the progeny. Sort of like if the Terminator would have killed Sarah Connor.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

Amazing how the same 15,000 Colt TSMGs accounted for the MODEL 1921, MODEL 1927 & MODEL 1928 Navy. Maguire's AOC had the machines Colt used moved to the Savage Utica, New York plant to produce the Savage U.S. MODEL 1928 A1. That makes Colt's TSMG connection to WWII rather central.

 

To TD's point, 1/3 of the 15,000 Colt TSMGs served overseas in WWII. That number is indeed dwarfed by the nearly 1.8 million Savage/AO total production, but 1/3 of the total production of a 20 year-old weapon design being utilized in WWII is certainly significant to those Colt employees who saw the results of their work representing America's only smg available to the Allies when Schleswig-Holstein opened fire on the Polish garrison of the Westerplatte Fort, Danzig .

 

Using Arthur's figures (5000 and 1.8M), the math says the following about Colt Thompsons:

 

• Colts were .0028 of all TSMG's in WWII.

 

• 99.72% were not Colt.

 

• 28 out of 10,000 TSMG's were Colt.

 

You can make your own assessment of their statistical significance.

 

This is not to demean their service, nor any pride of manufacturing that may have been experienced by Colt employees, nor their significance in the line of succession of the TSMG. It is just a calculation.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[Sandman1957]

Interesting. Now, what are the known serial numbers used in "crime"? You can start with the Lebman connection, the IRA guns to see how (most likely) minuscule that was. However it sure made an impression on America and the world.

 

Using this logic it is likely the most "famous" in getting Thompson recognition would be the guns used by stembridge in Hollywood. How many did they have 8 or so? That's the publicity connection:)

[67ray]

How many non-Colts remain today in the Registry? Anyone know that?

[Merry Ploughboy]

How many non-Colts remain today in the Registry? Anyone know that?

 

There're about 11,700 transferable Thompsons of all types per a rep from the BATFE a few years ago. About 2,800 are Colt made Thompsons per an estimate on Subguns.com about the same time.

[wwiifirearms]

Fewer than 700 of the approximately 15,000 1941 Johnson Rifles were actually used in WWII, yet they are often collected as a rare WWII firearm.

I tend to agree the Colt Thompson is more likely collected for reasons other than the WWII association.

[michaelkih]

Wow, I'm actually VERY surprised that 2,800 Colts are on the registry. I mean, they only made 15,000, and that was a hundred years ago. 1/3 were then shipped out of the country for WWII, and tons more all over the globe. Top that off with the fact that many in the US are not on the registry. They really are positive that there are 2,800 Colt Thompsons left in the US and on the registry? I'm new to this, and know nothing, but if that's true, I find that amazing.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Wow, I'm actually VERY surprised that 2,800 Colts are on the registry.

The number of Colt TSMGs in BATFE registry as estimated by the research of Cox, Herigstad, Dillon, Hill, Ballou, etc, is surmised to be below 2000.

[Merry Ploughboy]

I am not at all surprised. The seemingly high number of Colt Thompsons is simply because they were always expensive. In 1921, a new Ford Model A Runabout was only $325. People tend to take care of and keep valuable stuff. Further, most Colt Thompsons that were not in military service were in police and security use; places that by and large tend to have a better record of storing and maintaining than average owners.

 

One could always take an afternoon off, and count the list in Herigstad's book which seems to be the most complete. And new numbers still pop up on occasion.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

ETA: In another example, the Reising machine guns also saw mostly police and security non-military use in America, and there are an estimated 9,000 of them that are transferable.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Merry Ploughboy

[Merry Ploughboy]

 

Wow, I'm actually VERY surprised that 2,800 Colts are on the registry.

The number of Colt TSMGs in BATFE registry as estimated by the research of Cox, Herigstad, Dillon, Hill, Ballou, etc, is surmised to be below 2000.

 

For many years, the total number of transferable machine guns was surmised to be at 100,000 - 125,0000; much lower than the now known over 177,000 number. 177,000 divided by 125,000 times 2,000 equals just over 2,800.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

ETA: A cynic might say that dealers and collectors have a vested interest in a lower number of transferable machine guns as that would tend to drive up prices and perceived value.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Merry Ploughboy

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

For many years, the total number of transferable machine guns was surmised to be at 100,000 - 125,0000; much lower than the now known over 177,000 number. 177,000 divided by 125,000 times 2,000 equals just over 2,800.

 

No need to base the number of Colt TSMG transferables off of total BATFE registered NFA firearms. Take total AOC post 1934 NFA Act registered examples:

 

7,100

 

subtract 4,250 exported

 

subtract 950 ordered by U.S. Army

 

=

 

1,900

 

Allowances for 1968 amnesty examples?

[anjong-ni]

As "Sandman" stated, the popularity of the subject of our beloved hobby...the Thompson...is probably a result of exposure to very moralistic (and romantic) gangster and war movies produced by Hollywood using Stembridge Rental guns.

These movies forged our young minds into viewing the clear differences between right and wrong as played out on the screen. Bad guys might have had Thompsons, but good guys won anyway...

 

For all other reasons, the lovely art-deco Thompson was exactly the WRONG weapon for the era:

Too heavy...

Too glutinous of ammo...

Too expensive....

With all the wars fought 1921-1939, surely most every government purchasing department KNEW of the Thompson...but they bought Mausers instead... Phil

[jim c 351]

I wonder if the majority of Colts in the US are transferable,vs form 10 guns.

Seems like form 10 parts kits show up now and then.

There were 4 Colt kits for sale at the 2013 TCA show.

Jim C

Edited February 25, 2017 by jim c 351

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

With all the wars fought 1921-1939, surely most every government purchasing department KNEW of the Thompson...but they bought Mausers instead... Phil

 

Well, knowing and appreciating the capabilities of the Colt TSMG are two different things. A notable conflict between WWI & WWII, was the Irish liberation war with G.B. 1912-1922 and the Irish Civil War 1922-1923. The IRA purchased 600 Colt TSMGs from AOC in June, 1921. Why would the .45 smg replace the bolt action Mauser in foreign government armories when its effective range was 46 meters? Ordnance departments are famous for rejecting new designs.

 

Finland Foreign Office purchased 10 in 1921

Republic of Cuba purchased 60 in 1921

Republic of Panama purchased 41 in 1921

 

 

Too heavy? By what standards at that time? It was the same weight when used in WWII.

Too glutinous of ammo? It had select fire capability.

Too expensive? Indeed for the average American private citizen at the time.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Arthur Fliegenheimer

[Merry Ploughboy]

 

For many years, the total number of transferable machine guns was surmised to be at 100,000 - 125,0000; much lower than the now known over 177,000 number. 177,000 divided by 125,000 times 2,000 equals just over 2,800.

 

No need to base the number of Colt TSMG transferables off of total BATFE registered NFA firearms. Take total AOC post 1934 NFA Act registered examples:

 

7,100

 

subtract 4,250 exported

 

subtract 950 ordered by U.S. Army

 

=

 

1,900

 

Allowances for 1968 amnesty examples?

 

Both the Colt Thompson that I used to own and the one that I now own were purchased by police departments in the 1920s and amnesty registered in 1968. So, to me, it is easily conceivable that machine guns with known relatively high value would have been amnesty registered by civilians as well as many police departments.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Both the Colt Thompson that I used to own and the one that I now own were purchased by police departments in the 1920s and amnesty registered in 1968. So, to me, it is easily conceivable that machine guns with known relatively high value would have been amnesty registered by civilians as well as many police departments.

 

At the time of the amnesty, Colt TSMGs were valued at $500(+/-). Let's examine that 1968 Amnesty in effect from November 2, 1968 to December 1, 1968. What number out of the 57,000 registered during that period were Colt TSMGs? No way to know. The owners of Colt TSMGs would primarily be police departments. Doubtful the Colt TSMG would be a war souvenir bring back. That your Colts were from police departments that decided to avail themselves of the amnesty is interesting in that many police department were indifferent about whether their inventory of Colt TSMGs were transferable or destined to remain under Form 10 restrictions.

 

Does the amnesty pump up the number from 1,900 to 2,900? That would be speculative at best.