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Post Office/Marine Corps Thompsons


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This got started in the $995,000 Thompson thread but was never really answered.

Did the Post Office buy Thompsons which were given to Marine Corps guards? Did the

Marines not give them back? Did the Marines buy the Thompsons? All I know is what

I read but there seems to be, shall we say, a variance of opinion on this...

 

Bob

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The book I read on that matter, a biography on CHESTY PULLER, indicated that the Marines were rather suddenly pulled off of US Mail guard duty, and shipped off to Nicarauga. That would infer that they probably just took the Thompsons issued to them by the Post Office with them. I do remember reading in that book that Chesty liked the TSMG, but thought it ran too fast, and he made a recommendation to the Top Brass to buy some for field trials, for possible adoption in the Corps. Did that lead to the 1928 Navy model? Could be!
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well if the Marines did take the Thompson's from the postal dept. not sure if any postal workers would try and take them back from Ole Chesty or any Marine for that matter.

 

i have never heard of any postal unit. charging Tarawa,Iwo or Guadacanal.so just figured let the Marines keep them and do the fighting.

 

Humor in Uniform. the readers digest.

 

Ron/Colt21a

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This got started in the $995,000 Thompson thread but was never really answered.

Did the Post Office buy Thompsons which were given to Marine Corps guards? Did the

Marines not give them back? Did the Marines buy the Thompsons? All I know is what

I read but there seems to be, shall we say, a variance of opinion on this...

 

Bob

 

No, the USPS never purchased any Colt TSMG for the USMC. In 1926, the USMC purchased 250 Colt 1921 AC TSMG (not all were fitted with Cutts at the time) that were shipped to Quantico. By request of the Postmaster General, and order of Secretary of The Navy, with permission from President Coolidge, 2500(?) officers and men of the USMC were detached to the USPS for Western Mail Guard and Eastern Mail Guard duty. The confusion may stem from the fact that the Marines received their first Colt TSMG the same year that they were assigned to USPS guard duty. For some reason, there was an erroneous conclusion that the USPS were the owners of the TSMG and outfitted the Marines with them. By February, 1927. all the remaining USMC Mail Guard Colt TSMG were recalled home to Quantico. They were needed for the USMC Expeditionary Forces in China and Nicaragua.

 

Any Colt TSMG that turned up in USPS possession were those confiscated during the commission of a crime against the USPS.

Edited by Arthur Fliegenheimer
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Tracie L. Hill states in “The Ultimate Thompson Book” on page 167 “The Postmaster General made a swift decision. He ordered 200 Model 1921A Colt Thompsons from Auto-Ordnance Corporation, and passed them out to the U.S. Marines who now guarded the postal trains. The Marines fell in love with the Thompsons. Their attitude was, “We like ‘em. Were gonna keep 'em. And if you want ‘em, you can send your postal clerks to take ‘em away from us!"

Thompson_Post_Office.jpg

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Tracie L. Hill states in “The Ultimate Thompson Book” on page 167 “The Postmaster General made a swift decision. He ordered 200 Model 1921A Colt Thompsons from Auto-Ordnance Corporation, and passed them out to the U.S. Marines who now guarded the postal trains. The Marines fell in love with the Thompsons. Their attitude was, “We like ‘em. Were gonna keep 'em. And if you want ‘em, you can send your postal clerks to take ‘em away from us!"

 

Except that there is no record or contract number associated with AOC selling these "200 Model 1921A Colt Thompsons" to the USPS. Whom is that anonymous quote supposed to be attributed to? It seems Hill took that quote and worked backward. I'm pretty sure this has been covered before on the board. Perhaps Hill should have checked the list of serial numbers and purchasers in his own book before repeating this erroneous information as he would have found no Colt TSMG sold to the USPS.

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Tracie L. Hill states in “The Ultimate Thompson Book” on page 167 “The Postmaster General made a swift decision. He ordered 200 Model 1921A Colt Thompsons from Auto-Ordnance Corporation, and passed them out to the U.S. Marines who now guarded the postal trains. The Marines fell in love with the Thompsons. Their attitude was, “We like ‘em. Were gonna keep 'em. And if you want ‘em, you can send your postal clerks to take ‘em away from us!"

 

Except that there is no record or contract number associated with AOC selling these "200 Model 1921A Colt Thompsons" to the USPS. Whom is that anonymous quote supposed to be attributed to? It seems Hill took that quote and worked backward. I'm pretty sure this has been covered before on the board. Perhaps Hill should have checked the list of serial numbers and purchasers in his own book before repeating this erroneous information as he would have found no Colt TSMG sold to the USPS.

 

Arthur,

 

There is some apparent ambiguity to the whole USPS/USMC acquisition of the Thompsons that were used by Marines to guard the U.S. Mail. I'm not going to claim to be an expert on this particular piece of Thompson history, but I will relay what I have been told by whom I consider to be an expert source, and I will also research the point further, using Helmer's notes from interviews he conducted during research for "The Gun That Made The Twenties Roar" in the 1960's, and I will also ask Helmer if he has any further information on the subject.

 

My understanding is that the statement "The USPS purchased Colt Thompsons" is true. This statement has 2 parts to it. The first involves the USMC Thompsons, which were acquired for the Marines, apparently on a Marine purchase order, however they were most likely funded by the USPS for the Marines, since the intent was to use them to guard the U.S. Mail, which had experienced mail robberies, and wanted the gun put into use as a crime deterrent. This use of the Thompson was heralded in AO literature of the time. The second part is that the USPS reportedly acquired some Colt Thompsons on their own, outside of, and later than the Marine purchase. I will state out front that I do not have details of these other USPS acquired TSMG's, and again, I am not an expert on this particular piece of Thompson history, but I will research it further, and provide any additional findings on the subject.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Tracie L. Hill states in “The Ultimate Thompson Book” on page 167 “The Postmaster General made a swift decision. He ordered 200 Model 1921A Colt Thompsons from Auto-Ordnance Corporation, and passed them out to the U.S. Marines who now guarded the postal trains. The Marines fell in love with the Thompsons. Their attitude was, “We like ‘em. Were gonna keep 'em. And if you want ‘em, you can send your postal clerks to take ‘em away from us!"

 

Except that there is no record or contract number associated with AOC selling these "200 Model 1921A Colt Thompsons" to the USPS. Whom is that anonymous quote supposed to be attributed to? It seems Hill took that quote and worked backward. I'm pretty sure this has been covered before on the board. Perhaps Hill should have checked the list of serial numbers and purchasers in his own book before repeating this erroneous information as he would have found no Colt TSMG sold to the USPS.

 

Arthur,

 

There is some apparent ambiguity to the whole USPS/USMC acquisition of the Thompsons that were used by Marines to guard the U.S. Mail. I'm not going to claim to be an expert on this particular piece of Thompson history, but I will relay what I have been told by whom I consider to be an expert source, and I will also research the point further, using Helmer's notes from interviews he conducted during research for "The Gun That Made The Twenties Roar" in the 1960's, and I will also ask Helmer if he has any further information on the subject.

 

My understanding is that the statement "The USPS purchased Colt Thompsons" is true. This statement has 2 parts to it. The first involves the USMC Thompsons, which were acquired for the Marines, apparently on a Marine purchase order, however they were most likely funded by the USPS for the Marines, since the intent was to use them to guard the U.S. Mail, which had experienced mail robberies, and wanted the gun put into use as a crime deterrent. This use of the Thompson was heralded in AO literature of the time. The second part is that the USPS reportedly acquired some Colt Thompsons on their own, outside of, and later than the Marine purchase. I will state out front that I do not have details of these other USPS acquired TSMG's, and again, I am not an expert on this particular piece of Thompson history, but I will research it further, and provide any additional findings on the subject.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

Dave,

 

Then wouldn't it be correct to say that local taxpayers funded their local PD's to purchase TSMG's as well unless some benefactor donated them to a PD?

 

WJH says in TGTMTTR,

 

"The Post Office Department not only called out the Marines to guard the mails, but issued them 250 Thompson Submachine Guns.."

 

"...the Marines were embroiled in new troubles in China and Nicaragua, and deeply grateful to the Post Office Department for gifting the Corps with what soon proved to be extremely handy weapons"

 

He has the right number of Colt TSMG, as Hill uses the number 200, but there isn't any documentation that the USPS purchased these weapons from AOC. Why is there no purchase order from the USPS to AOC that documents even one of these 250 serial numbers being sent to the USPS? The same month that the "machine gun bandits" attacked the mail truck in Elizabeth, N.J., the USMC Quartermaster, under contract number #1204, dated October 22, 1926, procured the Colt TSMG from AOC. Since they had already purchased their own, why would they need the USPS to "gift" them the 250 Colt TSMG when they already owned them? Would the USPS really just piss away $32K+ ($400,000 in current value) in weapons to the USMC if they actually owned them?

 

 

See what WJH has for documentation for this USPS purchase from AOC.

Edited by Arthur Fliegenheimer
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Then wouldn't it be correct to say that local taxpayers funded their local PD's to purchase TSMG's as well unless some benefactor donated them to a PD?

 

Arthur,

 

Your taxpayer statement is technically correct, but I don't think it's analogous to the USPS/USMC situation in the 1920's. A large percentage of Colt TSMGs were funded by taxpayers.

___________________________________________________________________

 

I think it's clear that, whatever the specific procurement circumstances were, the Thompsons were purchased for the protection of the U.S. Mail. Marines were not normally a part of that process, but these were different times, with large sums of cash in the mail system, which resulted in appropriate protection strategies being implemented. The Marines used the TSMGs to protect the mail, and then they used them on their own.

 

If the USPS paid for the Thompsons on behalf of the Marines, there are many possible reasons:

 

- The USPS was the entity desiring the security of having TSMGs to guard the mail

- The USPS had available funds

- Marines were already trained in the use of weapons, were immediately available, and could be leveraged for guard duty

- Using mailmen as guards with TSMGs would have required further training, resulting in delays

- The USPS wanted the TSMGs fast, and the Marines were probably more familiar with weapons procurement

- The USPS may have never intended to keep all the TSMGs

 

There are a lot more potential circumstances that could be listed, and again, I'm posing these as possibilities worthy of discussion. I'll research it further through available resources.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

 

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Then wouldn't it be correct to say that local taxpayers funded their local PD's to purchase TSMG's as well unless some benefactor donated them to a PD?

 

Arthur,

 

Your taxpayer statement is technically correct, but I don't think it's analogous to the USPS/USMC situation in the 1920's. A large percentage of Colt TSMGs were funded by taxpayers.

___________________________________________________________________

 

I think it's clear that, whatever the specific procurement circumstances were, the Thompsons were purchased for the protection of the U.S. Mail. Marines were not normally a part of that process, but these were different times, with large sums of cash in the mail system, which resulted in appropriate protection strategies being implemented. The Marines used the TSMGs to protect the mail, and then they used them on their own.

 

If the USPS paid for the Thompsons on behalf of the Marines, there are many possible reasons:

 

- The USPS was the entity desiring the security of having TSMGs to guard the mail

- The USPS had available funds

- Marines were already trained in the use of weapons, were immediately available, and could be leveraged for guard duty

- Using mailmen as guards with TSMGs would have required further training, resulting in delays

- The USPS wanted the TSMGs fast, and the Marines were probably more familiar with weapons procurement

- The USPS may have never intended to keep all the TSMGs

 

There are a lot more potential circumstances that could be listed, and again, I'm posing these as possibilities worthy of discussion. I'll research it further through available resources.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

Dave,

 

The $350,000 that was necessary to equip and deploy the Marines as USPS Mail Guards for three months was surely added to the USMC budget not the USPS budget.

 

The AOC ad "Thompson Gun The Ultra Modern Superautomatic" with the photo of the USMC guard brandishing the Colt 1921 AC protecting a U.S. Mail truck and U.S. Mail bags has a subtitle: "Thompson guns are Adopted and in Use by:

 

The entities include The United States Marines and The United States Treasury Dept, as well as several state National Guard, Texas Ranger, Constabularies, State Penitentiaries, Sheriffs, Detective Agencies, Banks, Mines Express Companies and Industrial Plants. Conspicuous by its absence is any mention of the USPS. Would AOC slight the USPS after they supposedly purchased 250 Colt TSMG?

 

When WJH and Cox put out their books the information about the origin of the Colt TSMG that showed up in the hands of Marines while assigned to the protection of the U.S. Mails was probably not available to them. It appears that it was an assumption that the USPS owned these Colt TSGM and not any actual document that has to do with AOC and the USPS procurement of Colt TSMG.

Edited by Arthur Fliegenheimer
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Dave,

 

The $350,000 that was necessary to equip and deploy the Marines as USPS Mail Guards for three months was surely added to the USMC budget not the USPS budget.

 

The AOC ad "Thompson Gun The Ultra Modern Superautomatic" with the photo of the USMC guard brandishing the Colt 1921 AC protecting a U.S. Mail truck and U.S. Mail bags has a subtitle: "Thompson guns are Adopted and in Use by:

 

The entities include The United States Marines and The United States Treasury Dept, as well as several state National Guard, Texas Ranger, Constabularies, State Penitentiaries, Sheriffs, Detective Agencies, Banks, Mines Express Companies and Industrial Plants. Conspicuous by its absence is any mention of the USPS. Would AOC slight the USPS after they supposedly purchased 250 Colt TSMG?

 

When WJH and Cox put out their books the information about the origin of the Colt TSMG that showed up in the hands of Marines while assigned to the protection of the U.S. Mails was probably not available to them. It appears that it was an assumption that the USPS owned these Colt TSGM and not any actual document that has to do with AOC and the USPS procurement of Colt TSMG.

 

Arthur,

 

I'm still researching the Post Office Thompsons. I found this Smithsonian Institution link interesting:

 

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/inspectors/a6p1.html

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Dave,

 

The $350,000 that was necessary to equip and deploy the Marines as USPS Mail Guards for three months was surely added to the USMC budget not the USPS budget.

 

The AOC ad "Thompson Gun The Ultra Modern Superautomatic" with the photo of the USMC guard brandishing the Colt 1921 AC protecting a U.S. Mail truck and U.S. Mail bags has a subtitle: "Thompson guns are Adopted and in Use by:

 

The entities include The United States Marines and The United States Treasury Dept, as well as several state National Guard, Texas Ranger, Constabularies, State Penitentiaries, Sheriffs, Detective Agencies, Banks, Mines Express Companies and Industrial Plants. Conspicuous by its absence is any mention of the USPS. Would AOC slight the USPS after they supposedly purchased 250 Colt TSMG?

 

When WJH and Cox put out their books the information about the origin of the Colt TSMG that showed up in the hands of Marines while assigned to the protection of the U.S. Mails was probably not available to them. It appears that it was an assumption that the USPS owned these Colt TSGM and not any actual document that has to do with AOC and the USPS procurement of Colt TSMG.

 

Arthur,

 

I'm still researching the Post Office Thompsons. I found this Smithsonian Institution link interesting:

 

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/inspectors/a6p1.html

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

Dave,

 

The Colt Navy TSMG on the Smithsonian website appears to be #11768 which was donated to the Smithsonian by the USPS Forensic Laboratory in 1986. They had four Colt TSMG and two WWII AO TSMG stored in their crime lab.These would be the TSMG that I mentioned being in the USPS possession because they were used in the commission of a crime against the USPS and were confiscated by the USPS. These were not the Colts' used by the USMC Mail Guard.

 

The Smithsonian has no doubt been influenced by information that appeared in WJH's TGTMTTR and that Cox relied on. Why the following passage on their website is completely inaccurate is a head scratch.

 

"The Postal Inspection Service became the first law enforcement agency to purchase the Thompson submachine gun, commonly known as the “Tommy Gun,” to fight crime. "

 

The Smithsonian is assuming that since the USPS donated two Colt TSMG's to the museum, they must have used them at some point in their history. Not only did the USPS not use these two Colt TSMG given to the Smithsonian, but they were not even the " first law enforcement agency to purchase the TSMG." If this were true, there is no way that AOC would not have capitalized on this sales coup in their marketing paraphernalia. Again, there is zero mention of the USPS being the first, last, or any addition to the numerous other law enforcement agencies listed in the AOC ad featuring the USPS mail truck and mail bags.

Edited by Arthur Fliegenheimer
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I see now the crux of this issue. However, in the quest for facts it is not a valid

argument 80 years later to say that someone "would have" done something if some

other thing happened - e.g. that if the Postal Service bought Thompsons then AO

would have certainly have used such a purchase as promotional fodder. Maybe they

would have, maybe they wouldn't.

Doug has the sales records. Is there a serial number of a gun (I see several in

the back of Tracies book) that would be a good candidate for me to give Doug and

have him check the records and see who AO says the gun was sold to? Of course

even with that info one could claim that yes, the guns were shipped to USMC but

they were actually paid for by someone else...

Anyway, give me a serial number or two...

 

Bob

 

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Dave,

 

The Colt Navy TSMG on the Smithsonian website appears to be #11768 which was donated to the Smithsonian by the USPS Forensic Laboratory in 1986. They had four Colt TSMG and two WWII AO TSMG stored in their crime lab.These would be the TSMG that I mentioned being in the USPS possession because they were used in the commission of a crime against the USPS and were confiscated by the USPS. These were not the Colts' used by the USMC Mail Guard.

 

The Smithsonian is no doubt repeating the same information that appeared in WJH's TGTMTTR and that Cox relied on That is why the following passage on their website is inaccurate. [/b]

 

"The Postal Inspection Service became the first law enforcement agency to purchase the Thompson submachine gun, commonly known as the “Tommy Gun,” to fight crime. "

 

The Smithsonian is assuming that since the USPS donated two Colt TSMG's to the museum, they must have used them at some point in their history. Not only did the USPS not use these two Colt TSMG given to the Smithsonian, but they were not even the " first law enforcement agency to purchase the TSMG." If this were true, there is no way that AOC would not have capitalized on this sales coup in their marketing paraphernalia. Again, there is zero mention of the USPS being the first, last, or any addition to the numerous other law enforcement agencies listed in the AOC ad featuring the USPS mail truck and mail bags.

 

 

Arthur,

 

My inclusion of the link above did not suggest anything except that the link is "interesting." Your statement about the Smithsonian repeating the same information that appeared in Helmer's TGTMTTR is an inaccurate representation of the writings of your favorite Thompson author.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

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This got started in the $995,000 Thompson thread but was never really answered.

Did the Post Office buy Thompsons which were given to Marine Corps guards? Did the

Marines not give them back? Did the Marines buy the Thompsons? All I know is what

I read but there seems to be, shall we say, a variance of opinion on this...

 

Bob

 

No, the USPS never purchased any Colt TSMG for the USMC. In 1926, the USMC purchased 250 Colt 1921 AC TSMG (not all were fitted with Cutts at the time) that were shipped to Quantico. By request of the Postmaster General, and order of Secretary of The Navy, with permission from President Coolidge, 2500(?) officers and men of the USMC were detached to the USPS for Western Mail Guard and Eastern Mail Guard duty. The confusion may stem from the fact that the Marines received their first Colt TSMG the same year that they were assigned to USPS guard duty. For some reason, there was an erroneous conclusion that the USPS were the owners of the TSMG and outfitted the Marines with them. By February, 1927. all the remaining USMC Mail Guard Colt TSMG were recalled home to Quantico. They were needed for the USMC Expeditionary Forces in China and Nicaragua.

 

Any Colt TSMG that turned up in USPS possession were those confiscated during the commission of a crime against the USPS.

 

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Dave,

 

The Colt Navy TSMG on the Smithsonian website appears to be #11768 which was donated to the Smithsonian by the USPS Forensic Laboratory in 1986. They had four Colt TSMG and two WWII AO TSMG stored in their crime lab.These would be the TSMG that I mentioned being in the USPS possession because they were used in the commission of a crime against the USPS and were confiscated by the USPS. These were not the Colts' used by the USMC Mail Guard.

 

The Smithsonian is no doubt repeating the same information that appeared in WJH's TGTMTTR and that Cox relied on That is why the following passage on their website is inaccurate. [/b]

 

"The Postal Inspection Service became the first law enforcement agency to purchase the Thompson submachine gun, commonly known as the “Tommy Gun,” to fight crime. "

 

The Smithsonian is assuming that since the USPS donated two Colt TSMG's to the museum, they must have used them at some point in their history. Not only did the USPS not use these two Colt TSMG given to the Smithsonian, but they were not even the " first law enforcement agency to purchase the TSMG." If this were true, there is no way that AOC would not have capitalized on this sales coup in their marketing paraphernalia. Again, there is zero mention of the USPS being the first, last, or any addition to the numerous other law enforcement agencies listed in the AOC ad featuring the USPS mail truck and mail bags.

 

 

Arthur,

 

My inclusion of the link above did not suggest anything except that the link is "interesting." Your statement about the Smithsonian repeating the same information that appeared in Helmer's TGTMTTR is an inaccurate representation of the writings of your favorite Thompson author.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

 

 

Dave,

 

It is "interesting" that the Smithsonian National Postal Museum is shaky on their own history as well of that of the Colt TSMG. Is that what you mean? Hell, I would even go so far to characterize it as disconcerting. Doesn't the SNPM consider the NYPD to be a law enforcement agency?

 

This isn't a slight on WJH. As you point out, I include a blurb from his book as part of my MGB signature. And WJH never said the Postal Inspection Service was the first law enforcement agency to purchase the Colt TSMG. But the notion that the USPS/PIS ever purchased Colt TSMG for the purpose of law enforcement does seem to originate from WJH's book. How it got totally bastardized by 1986 where the SNPM then declared the PIS to be the first law enforcement agency to buy Colt TSMG does not have anything to do with WJH.

 

You collect AOC paper. Do you have any AOC publications heralding the USPS/PIS as a customer?

Edited by Arthur Fliegenheimer
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Dave,

 

It is "interesting" that the Smithsonian National Postal Museum is shaky on their own history as well of that of the Colt TSMG. Is that what you mean? Hell, I would even go so far to characterize it as disconcerting. Doesn't the SNPM consider the NYPD to be a law enforcement agency?

 

This isn't a slight on WJH. As you point out, I include a blurb from his book as part of my MGB signature. And WJH never said the Postal Inspection Service was the first law enforcement agency to purchase the Colt TSMG. But the notion that the USPS/PIS ever purchased Colt TSMG for the purpose of law enforcement does seem to originate from WJH's book. How it got totally bastardized by 1986 where the SNPM then declared the PIS to be the first law enforcement agency to buy Colt TSMG does not have anything to do with WJH.

 

You collect AOC paper. Do you have any AOC publications heralding the USPS/PIS as a customer?

 

Arthur,

 

As far as the Smithsonian quote, I'm not agreeing with it as stated, but it is interesting to me how different, credible sources arrive at conclusions that are somewhat similar, and point to the Post Office purchasing, or at least funding Thompsons, the first of which were used by U.S. Marines to guard the mail. I think we can say without question that the Colt Thompsons used by the U.S. Marines to guard the U.S. Mail were purchased expressly for that purpose.

 

Thank you for retracting your previous statement associating the Smithsonian comment with Helmer's information published in TGTMTTR.

 

Yes, I have perused my AOC paper, and found where I believe the first printed AOC reference to the Post Office/USMC use of Colt Thompsons was published. Here it is from the Auto-Ordnance 1929 Catalog:

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/USMail_Web.JPG

 

Another drawing was used in later catalogs, particularly the 1934/36 versions, and it appears to originate from the image used in the 1929 Catalog.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/Thompson%20Catalogs/1936_USMail_Web.JPG

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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I see now the crux of this issue. However, in the quest for facts it is not a valid

argument 80 years later to say that someone "would have" done something if some

other thing happened - e.g. that if the Postal Service bought Thompsons then AO

would have certainly have used such a purchase as promotional fodder. Maybe they

would have, maybe they wouldn't. Doug has the sales records. Is there a serial number of a gun (I see several in

the back of Tracies book) that would be a good candidate for me to give Doug and

have him check the records and see who AO says the gun was sold to? Of course

even with that info one could claim that yes, the guns were shipped to USMC but

they were actually paid for by someone else...

Anyway, give me a serial number or two...

 

Bob

 

If that were the only evidence that the USMC purchased the Colt TSMG for USPS Mail Guard duty, then that would be true. However, the fact that AOC didn't include this supposed sale in their literature, when they mention every other major buyer in their ads, it does further undermine the contention that the USPS was an AOC customer in 1926, or any other time. What can be documented is that the USMC purchased 250 Colt TSMG from AOC in October 1926.

 

Even if the USPS paid for them, which can only be speculative since we do not have any documentation for this, if the weapons were sent to Quantico then it further undermines the notion that the USPS "issued" the Marines Colt TSMG.

 

Some of the confirmed USMC Mail Guard Colt TSMG serial numbers:

 

#3764

#4117

#5071

#5235

 

Will D.R. look these up for free?

Edited by Arthur Fliegenheimer
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Arthur and All,

 

OK, I just got a reply from Helmer, and have received 2 out of 3 of the references footnoted by him in TGTMTTR. The Associated Press reported the following on October 26, 1926, which was printed in the New York Times on 10/27/26.

 

The following article is credited to the New York Times, a copy of which was purchased using their online archive from the October 27, 1926 edition of the newspaper:

 

________________________________________________________________________________

______

 

Machine Guns for Mails.

 

Marines Will Fight Bandits with Own Type of Weapons.

 

Washington, Oct 26. (AP) - Mail bandits are to be fought with their own type of weapons. Postmaster General New has purchased 250 Thompson machine guns for immediate delivery to the marines on guard at various mail centres and has placed orders for an additional supply.

 

The gun selected is an improved model of the kind used by the Elizabeth (N.J.) bandits in their hold-up of the mails there recently.

________________________________________________________________________________

_________

 

Helmer does not have an exact recollection of the circumstances surrounding the Post Office/USMC Thompsons, but he did say he knew the Post Office wanted the Marines to have them to guard the mail, and it was likely the Post Office paid for them, but he's not sure how those things worked at the time. His research for TGTMTTR in the 1960's was meticulous, and serves to reference what he found, and he is not always able to recall specifics today. I have not seen another firearm book that is so well footnoted, as it had to be, since it was his Master's Thesis, and is the only publicly published book that involved the principal individuals involved with the TSMG in its documentation of the subject.

 

I also found information written to Helmer by General Richard M. Cutts in 1964 that supports the notion that the Thompsons were appropriated for the Marines to guard the U.S. Mail, outside of the normal procurement process.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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This got started in the $995,000 Thompson thread but was never really answered.

Did the Post Office buy Thompsons which were given to Marine Corps guards? Did the

Marines not give them back? Did the Marines buy the Thompsons? All I know is what

I read but there seems to be, shall we say, a variance of opinion on this...

 

Bob

 

No, the USPS never purchased any Colt TSMG for the USMC. In 1926, the USMC purchased 250 Colt 1921 AC TSMG (not all were fitted with Cutts at the time) that were shipped to Quantico. By request of the Postmaster General, and order of Secretary of The Navy, with permission from President Coolidge, 2500(?) officers and men of the USMC were detached to the USPS for Western Mail Guard and Eastern Mail Guard duty. The confusion may stem from the fact that the Marines received their first Colt TSMG the same year that they were assigned to USPS guard duty. For some reason, there was an erroneous conclusion that the USPS were the owners of the TSMG and outfitted the Marines with them. By February, 1927. all the remaining USMC Mail Guard Colt TSMG were recalled home to Quantico. They were needed for the USMC Expeditionary Forces in China and Nicaragua.

 

Any Colt TSMG that turned up in USPS possession were those confiscated during the commission of a crime against the USPS.

 

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Gordon Herigstad has done yeoman work in correcting the confusion over the "Post Office Thompson Submachine Guns," and yet the apocryphal story is still thriving. G.H.'s extensive research that uncovered historical documentation regarding the Marines association with the Colt TSMG is infinitely more superior and reliable than the AP's blurb..

 

Because of an Associated Press wire story that was picked up by the newspapers, we know how this confusion got started. But if we look at the dynamics of what was happening back in the 1920's regarding the USPS and the Marines, it becomes more apparent why this info was disseminated in the way it was. As verified in the "Brief History of The Marine Corps Base and Recruit Depot San Diego, California 1914-1962," the USMC 5th Regiment was first assigned to USPS Mail Guard duty from November, 1921 to March, 1922.. While the USMC had not purchased Colt TSMG in any quantity, they already were in possession of two examples by 1922. The USPS didn't arm them with these TSMG (even though these Colt TSMG were not used by the Marines for mail guard duty then) or any other weapons for that matter, for their first mail guard duty.

 

In the 1978 book "Quantico: Crossroads Of The Marine Corps," General Alexander Archer Vandegrift , who in 1926 was a Major stationed at Quantico, Virginia, and by October, 1926, was Assistant Chief of Staff 4th Regiment Marine Corps Base, San Diego, California, is quoted saying in regards to the Marines taking control of the security for Post Offices, mail trains, and mail trucks, "We armed our people with .45 Automatic pistols, 12- gage riot shotguns, and Thompson Submachine Guns. We publicized both the armament and Butler's personal orders," Come back with your shields or upon them."

 

At this moment in time, Brigadier-General Smedley D. Butler was commander of the 4th Regiment which comprised the Western Mail Guards.

 

Even though "Quantico: Crossroads Of The Marine Corps" has this quote attached to the 1921 Marine Mail Guard duty, since Vandergrift was stationed in Haiti from 1919 to 1923, the quote is obviously referring to the second time the Marines pulled USPS Guard duty in 1926.

 

Two things are interesting about Vandergrift's comments. He doesn't say the USPS armed the Marines , but he does mention that there was a deliberate effort to publicize the degree to which the Marines would be armed, no doubt to dissuade the bandits from attacking the USPS Mail.

 

While the AP blurb does not directly quote the Postmaster General, New is more or less following Butler's recommendation to promote the fact that the Marines would be armed with submachine guns. If the AP's attribution of New making this statement was indeed accurate at the time, it appears that New just made himself the hero of the story by suggesting that he is responsible for the Marines getting the Colt TSMG. Yet there is no proof of this in the historical record.

 

Let's examine the state of the USPS finances at the time the AP story printed the comments of the Postmaster General. In October, 1926 Postmaster General Harry S. New told the media that when Congress reconvened, they will be asked for $1 million so the USPS can purchase armored mail trucks and hire organized armed-guards to replace the Marine guards. The 69th Congress was in adjournment from July 3 to December 6, 1926. Not only is there no mention of submachine guns, but how would the USPS buy these weapons to outfit the Marines before Congress could even authorize any funds per the USPS request? To say that this Colt TSMG purchase by the USPS was "outside of the normal procurement process" is just more unsubstantiated material. Why would New draw attention to his lobbying of Congress for funds if he already had a back channel to Congress for funds even when Congress was not in session. Who was New dealing with?

 

While WJH's book TGTMTTR is indeed well annotated, there isn't any annotation for the paragraph that concerns the USPS issuing the Marines 250 TSMG, not even the AP blurb.

Edited by Arthur Fliegenheimer
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Something for you trivia buffs. Smedley Butler was one of those very unique Marines to be awarded the "MEDAL OF HONOR" twice.

Jim C

PS I don't know about the rest of you, but its quite clear to me that the post office never bought any Tommyguns.

Thanks to Art for clearing this up once and for all

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While WJH's book TGTMTTR is indeed well annotated, there isn't any annotation for the paragraph that concerns the USPS issuing the Marines 250 TSMG, not even the AP blurb.[/b][/color]

 

Arthur,

 

Your statement above is incorrect. You should finish skimming TGTMTTR...the 250 Postal TSMG's are covered in 2 different chapters, and there is a footnote to the AP story I mentioned, as well as another one.

 

Yes, Gordon did a great job of documenting the Thompsons involved in guarding the U.S. Mail in 1926, and their subsequent use in conflicts, and I thank him for his research. Research does not always end when it appears conclusive. There is a big question that was not addressed, and that question is why it was reported in 1926 that the USPS bought the Thompsons. Helmer went into more detail in his book than the short AP wire note, and while he kept hundreds of pages of notes, he also discussed details on the phone, and met with some of the principal players of the time, all of whom relayed their experiences of the early days of the Thompson. General Cutts mentioned the U.S. Mail/USMC Guard TSMG's because he had a stake in getting most of them equipped at a later time with compensators. Tracie appears to have some additional source(s) on the subject. Just because you wish to dismiss an AP report in 1926 as ridiculous does not make it so, and I ask all who are legitimately interested in this subject to honestly reflect upon why it was reported as it was, and decide whether it truly deserves the dismissal that you so easily hand it. This story beckons more research with the Post Office, if the records still exist, and some other avenues that have not yet been reviewed.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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While WJH's book TGTMTTR is indeed well annotated, there isn't any annotation for the paragraph that concerns the USPS issuing the Marines 250 TSMG, not even the AP blurb.[/b][/color]

 

Arthur,

 

Your statement above is incorrect. You should finish skimming TGTMTTR...the 250 Postal TSMG's are covered in 2 different chapters, and there is a footnote to the AP story I mentioned, as well as another one.

 

Yes, Gordon did a great job of documenting the Thompsons involved in guarding the U.S. Mail in 1926, and their subsequent use in conflicts, and I thank him for his research. Research does not always end when it appears conclusive. There is a big question that was not addressed, and that question is why it was reported in 1926 that the USPS bought the Thompsons. Helmer went into more detail in his book than the short AP wire note, and while he kept hundreds of pages of notes, he also discussed details on the phone, and met with some of the principal players of the time, all of whom relayed their experiences of the early days of the Thompson. General Cutts mentioned the U.S. Mail/USMC Guard TSMG's because he had a stake in getting most of them equipped at a later time with compensators. Tracie appears to have some additional source(s) on the subject. Just because you wish to dismiss an AP report in 1926 as ridiculous does not make it so, and I ask all who are legitimately interested in this subject to honestly reflect upon why it was reported as it was, and decide whether it truly deserves the dismissal that you so easily hand it. This story beckons more research with the Post Office, if the records still exist, and some other avenues that have not yet been reviewed.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

Dave,

 

The two passages in chapter 5 and chapter 6 are somewhat contradictory. In chapter 5, WJH says "the government announced that 2500 Marines would be assigned to guard the mails. This does indeed have the New York Times ( not AP) footnote,. In chapter 6, WJH says "The Post office department called out the Marines to guard the mails." No footnote. In the first passage, the USPS is just a bystander, while in the second, they are an autonomous entity with all the authority. But there is no mention in TGTMTTR about the first time the USMC pulled USPS Mail Guard duty in 1921.

 

Cutts didn't get the USPS Colt TSMG compensators; he got the USMC Colt TSMG compensators.

 

If Hill had any info to substantiate the notion that the USPS bought and "furnished"/"issued" the Marines with Colt TSMG, why did he not include it in his 2009 book?

 

There are a lot of AP reports that are ridiculous. The AP was a conduit for PG New's press release. Without an AOC contract showing the USPS as purchaser, the press release should not be taken at face value. Do you think the AP actually followed up on this story to confirm if the USPS, a government agency woefully in need of funds at this exact moment in time, spent $32K on weapons for a military unit when they desperately needed these resources to be spent exclusively on their own security?

 

With all due deference to Brigadier General Richard Malcolm Cutts, four-star General Alexander Archer Vandegrift was on the scene. But why did Cutts send WJH info specifically about the "Post Office TSMG?" What sort of info was communicated other than Cutts' desire to fit compensators on those Colt TSMG from the USMC contract order #1204?

 

Whose work contained the most concentrated minutia on the USMC's association with the Colt TSMG, WJH, Hill or G.H.?

 

I didn't get the impression from Hill's "The Ultimate Thompson Book" that the "USPS Colt TSMG" story "beckons more research." In the short reference to these "USPS Colt TSMG," Hill didn't express any ambivalence about how the Marines obtained "200 Colt TSMG" for mail guard duty in 1926. Surely Hill was aware of G.H.' serial number periodical that addressed this very point before "The Ultimate Thompson Book" was completed or published?

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I have been watching this thread unfold from a distance since I was out of town without access to the Board when the thread began. Given the account of how the US Post Office purchased Thompson Submachine Guns for the US Marines to guard the US mail has been around since 1926, I am not so quick to dismiss the story. I am also not so quick as to dismiss the writings of Mr. Helmer and Mr. Hill - or Mr. Herigstad. I find it interesting this is a story that has never generated much controversy – until now. I have not performed any original research, only read all that I could find on the subject. My comments are based on these readings.

 

The October 27, 1926 story in the New York Times stating then “Postmaster General New has purchased 250 Thompson machine guns for immediate delivery to the marines” is short and to the point. I don’t see how it could be misunderstood. There is no doubt Thompson guns were available from Auto-Ordnance (AOC) for immediate delivery, probably about 12,000 guns in 1926!

 

I find it interesting the Postmaster General and later the US Marines are quick to cite the use of the Thompson Submachine Gun to protect the US Mail. It is almost a concerted effort to warn all potential robbers that any robbery attempt will be met with machine gun fire. There does not appear to be a dispute about this point. AOC certainly used the fact the Marines guarded the mail with the Thompson gun in their advertisements. I am not surprised the law enforcement division within the Post Office, the Postal Inspection Service, is not cited as a purchaser or user of the Thompson gun in 1926 or even in the later 1929 AOC catalog. My quick review of the 1929 AOC catalog does not reveal any federal law enforcement organizations using the Thompson gun. So who was the first federal law enforcement agency to officially adopt the Thompson gun for duty use? But I digress…

 

I feel certain all AOC sales records will indicate the US Marines took delivery of the 250 Thompson guns in question as they were the end user. The only real question or controversy is who paid for the guns. From Gordon’s book, I found this quote from THE MARINES CORPS GAZETTE 1926 very interesting: “The funds appropriated for the maintenance of the Marine Corps for the fiscal year being barely sufficient for the current needs of the Corps, it was apparent that if the Marines were detailed to the duty in question it would be necessary to secure additional funds.” This could lead one to surmise if the Marine Corps had barely enough funding to exist, how did they find the funds to purchase 250 Thompson Submachine Guns right after they were detailed via Presidential Directive to guard the US Mails.

 

The dates of all the events that led to the US Marines guarding the mail do not rule out the Post Office funding this purchase. Actually, the dates really lend credibility to the story (The AOC contract dated October 22, 1926 happened days after the October 15th Elizabeth, New Jersey machine gun robbery and the call up of the Marines on October 16th. And yes, a government organization as large as the Post Office would have had ample money on hand to make this type of purchase. My math indicates we are talking about less than $50,000.

 

I believe the folklore part of this story is how the Marines would not return the Thompson guns to postal officials when the guard detail was completed. If the post office purchased these 250 guns for the Marines to use in protecting the US Mail, I feel certain there was never a plan for the guns to be returned to the Post Office. This was not a piece of equipment that was needed at the post office; the continual inventory, storage and security concerns for 250 submachine guns would have involved a lot of resources.

 

The New York Times story cannot be dismissed outright – unless it can be proven incorrect. It must be included in the story to let the reader decide. I find it interesting the very proud US Marines never denied receiving their first large shipment of Thompson guns courtesy of the US Postal Service. From what I can read on the subject, this was treated as a well known and publicized fact, not some spurious story as Arthur has alluded too. Would not someone in the US Marines have set the story straight years ago if this was a real controversy, not the complete story or simply incorrect? I don’t believe anyone in the Marines would have hesitated to set the record straight – if that course of action was needed.

 

While still giving credit to Gordon for all his meticulous research, I am going to keep an open mind on this story in Thompson history. More information may just surface some day that really ends this new controversy. I feel certain Gordon would want everyone on this Board to continue his research; that is the only way we learn.

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