Jump to content

Information on my M1A1


Recommended Posts

I am looking for some information on my Auto Ordinance M1A1. My father purchased it in 1974 for $450. (Hard to believe with today's prices). I just recently had the gun transferred to me from my mother. (7 months on NFA paperwork). I am getting separate insurance on it. Does any one have an idea of the value? From what i am seeing on Gunbroker it looks like a $25,000. The gun is in great condition and I have attached pictures. Also, would anyone have an idea what year the gun was produced by serial #. It's not on the original paperwork. I am wanting to say my father said 1944 before he passed away several years ago.

 

William

post-262737-0-21968600-1632268517_thumb.jpg

post-262737-0-57869300-1632268562_thumb.jpg

post-262737-0-61920600-1632268572_thumb.jpg

post-262737-0-60733600-1632268587_thumb.jpg

post-262737-0-90638500-1632268649_thumb.jpg

post-262737-0-82305000-1632268671_thumb.jpg

post-262737-0-14144000-1632268682_thumb.jpg

post-262737-0-70466300-1632268700_thumb.jpg

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very nice! You have an M1 rather than a M1A1. Looks like the original blued finish rather than a later park. Pivot and safety are the early paddle type, and the mag release was left over from M1928A1 production. Later ones did not have the boss for a drum magazine. The butt stock does not have a reinforcing bolt, which is correct for the M1. Sling swivels should be of the milled type, rather than stamped steel. A "bright" bolt with separate firing pin was also original to the gun.

 

RLB was Roy L. Bolin, chief ordnance inspector for the US Army Rochester ordnance district from 1940 until 1942, so the gun was not made after 1942. The production date is impossible to determine more closely because original factory records have not survived.

Edited by TSMGguy
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A very nice early M1 Thompson submachine gun. I have not studied the M1/M1A1 Thompson guns but can easily recognize this is a very early M1. I believe it was manufactured by Savage Arms but would need a close up high resolution picture of the trademark to be certain. TSMGguy has pointed out some of the features found on early M1 Thompsons. While the finish does appear to be original, I would want better pictures or an in-person examination to be sure. I recommend you purchase Frank Iannamico's American Thunder III before it is out of print (and probably soon). This book is the current authority on the military Thompson guns. Several early M1 Thompson guns are featured.

 

I really like the provenance you have for your fathers gun. I would assume you also have some of the early IRS registration forms. If not, I would suggest a Freedom of Information Act request to learn more about the registration history. Thank you for sharing. It appears you have one of the nicest M1 Thompsons on the Registry. Regarding value, I believe 25K may be a tad low in todays market for what appears to be a really nice M1 Thompson.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

William,

That is a really nice 'hand me down' from your father.

 

From what I have learned over the years, shortly after its adoption in 1942, the M1 was simplified even more by the substitution of a fixed firing pin on the bolt face rather than the separate hammer used with the M1928A1 and the M1. This change resulted in the adoption of the “Submachine Gun, Caliber .45 M1A1” in October 1942, although it did not see full-scale production until early 1943.

 

Your M1 has the AO civilian inspector stamp of GEG, (George E. Goll), on the receiver, he was ased at the Savage plant, so identifying it as a Savage produced M1, produced in 1942. George E Goll was a member of the original Thompson design team, who accompanied General Thompson on his demonstration tour in Europe during 1921, in his capacity as “Rifleman Demonstrator”.

 

George E Goll continued his employment with AOC into the 1940’s, in the capacity of AOCs civilian inspector at the Savage plant between 1940 and 1944. In 1944 Auto Ordnance was downsized, and George E Goll was promoted to the position of manager of the ‘ordnance division’ of its parent company, Maguire Industries. He left his legacy in his encircled GEG stamp, found on most of the Thompson guns produced at the Savage Arms Corporations Utica plant.

Another subtle difference between the manufacturer’s guns, that I learned from Americn Thunder II, is found in the serial number abbreviation. On Savage guns the abbreviation reads ‘NO.’, while Auto-Ordnance, Bridgeport is slightly different reading, ‘No.’.

 

Probably from the same source, I also read that the Auto-Ordnance, Bridgeport facility had a difficult time when changing over from M1928A1 to M1 production, resulting in a several months delay in the start of their M1 production. This delay was followed by another, when the weapons were rejected by the Springfield Ordnance District inspectors, because their full-auto cyclic rate exceeded the specifications. By the time the problems were resolved and the Bridgeport plant Thompson M1s were finally being accepted by Ordnance, the M1 had been superseded as Standard by the M1A1 model.

Most of the receivers at the Bridgeport plant had already been roll marked M1, despite never leaving the factory. So, once they were upgraded to the new M1A1 configuration, the A1 Suffix were hand stamped on these weapons at the factory. So I believe you will not find an 'M1' marked weaspon, that was manaufactured at the Auto-Ordnance, Bridgeport facility for that reason, correct me if I am wrong?

Enjoy your M1,

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice M1. Take the TSMG and turn upside down and look at the receiver just in front of the magazine well. You

should see a letter code of "S" or "AO" this will define the maker. S is for Savage of Utica NY and the AO will be

Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport. Both will have the AO Bridgeport address on the right side of the receiver.

 

Also the receiver and frame were never blued..the process was called Dulite. This color can be anywhere from a bluish color

to a battle ship grey. Yours appears to be original. Since the gun is coming from a law enforcement supplier, my

guess is that is came from a PD. Now if it was in the military system prior to that is anyone's guess. This is where

the reason of information "might" help.

 

Tracie Hill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the informaiton guys. Espically on it being a early M1 not a M1A1. I have the orginal NFA paperwork my father did in 1974 and it's listed as a M1A1. So, will the M1 not take the drum magizine? I know the militry didnt like them and designed the M1A1 not to take them and developed the 30 rd magizine instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right, M1 and M1A1 models will not take a drum magazine, though some have been modified over the years so that they do.

 

Usually, but not always, M1s modified at government arsenals or depots will have an A1 stamp after M1.

 

Early M1's such as yours should also have a matching serial number on the frame at the trigger guard.

 

Du-Lite bluing is a Type III black oxide finish. The Du-Lite blue takes on a different color when applied over a sandblasted surface, and the more aggressive the sandblasting the more gray the finish appears. The Singer 1911A1 pistols were Du-Lite blued over a polished surface, and they are a blue color. WWII TSMGs were never factory parked, and their finishes appeared as dull black when the guns left the factory. Some parts had more polish than others, and can appear quite glossy or blue, like your gun's barrel.

Edited by TSMGguy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say to insure it for any amount you like. It's irreplaceable. What seems like a reasonable valuation today will be grossly inadequate in a couple of years.

 

Just take good care of the gun. That means that it's locked up in a really good gun safe when it isn't in your personal possession.

Edited by TSMGguy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe insurance for 25K would be a good start. When you hit the 30K range you are entering Colt territory. See were the premium increases break with your insurance company.

 

As I stated above, it appears you have a very nice early M1 Thompson, a great gift from your father. However, all the above comments are based on the low resolution pictures you posted. Yes, these pictures are enough for interested buyers to seek you out for a in-person inspection if this M1 Thompson was on the market because the finish appears original; a huge selling point for all WWII Thompson guns. But there are still questions about this Thompson. While I have never really studied the M1 Thompson, I know from original M1 Thompson guns that the L rear sight would be standard on any M1 Thompson in the 17,000 serial number range. The rear sight rivets may hold a clue for this anomaly. On page 180 of American Thunder III, there is a picture of the rear sights on two M1A1 receivers. Those with this book can note how the rivets on the M1A1 rear sight from the Auto-Ordnance Bridgeport factory appear identical to the rivets on your M1 Thompson that forum members have stated is from the Savage factory. Again, the M1 Thompson is not my area of expertise (if I even have an area or expertise :) However, this may indicate someone in the past upgraded your M1 Thompson rear sight. Or not. I would have to study the rivets on rear sights on a number of original M1/M1A1 Thompson guns before offering an opinion. That said, the replacement of the L rear sight is a common civilian "upgrade" on many WWII Thompson guns.

 

Frank's American Thunder III is only a start - but needs to be in your library!

 

Since you are now part of the Thompson community, I would encourage you to join one or both of the Thompson associations, i.e., The American Thompson Association and/or the Thompson Collector's Association. The yearly shows, currently held in Ohio, will expose you to very knowledgeable enthusiasts and many M1 Thompson guns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry it should read "Freedom of Information"

 

Also the rear sight is not of the early M1 designs, but that does not mean it is not original to the Receiver .

 

Tracie Hill

 

 

Interesting that a Savage M1 in the 17,000 range would have a protected rear sight.

 

I read in one of the books in my library that M1’s produced up to the high 137000 serial numbers used the same unprotected L sights found on the later variations of the M1928A1. As these ‘L’ sights were found to be easily damaged, at the end of 1942 they were replaced with a similar sight with protective ‘ears’. The remaining early M1’s produced with the unprotected ’L’ sights, often had the protected sights added at U.S. Arsenals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Savage M1 S/N 124XXX has the winged sight, one-piece foregrip mount, an AOC lower with paddle shaped levers, a 28 mag release and a cross-bolted stock. Somebody at the arsenal went out of their way to put the good stuff on it during a rebuild

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Definitely need a high resolution photo of the rear sight rivets. While AOC rivets will have a center punch mark, the rivets in the current photograph almost appear to have a funnel shaped hole depression. Regardless of the rear sight, the M1 in this thread is a great looking Thompson in addition to being a family heirloom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FYI.

 

FOIA requests through the ATFs Disclosure department, seem to be taking longer, to get an acknowledgement of a request received and a FOIA request number.

 

Weve submitted two in the last 15 months. One last year in August via email, received email response that the request was received in three business days. Have not received the information as of yet.

 

Emailed another FOIA request on an NFA weapon a month ago and we have not received a confirmation of request receipt. Either by email or USPS.

 

Weve had to in the past, resubmit the entire request or in partial, if there was more the one NFA weapon in the request.

 

Just sharing, as not everyones experience is the same

 

You may have to wait a while to get a rep. Finding the original IRS paperwork would be the best case scenario.

 

Good luck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dulite is the name of a company that makes a variety of chemicals for metal finishing. They have been around

for many years. Auto-Ordnance used their chemicals to black oxide gun parts and somewhere along the way the

finish, at least as far as Thompsons is concerned, has become known as a "Dulite" finish. But the finish is industrial

black oxide. Everywhere in industry the process is black oxide, except in the gun industry where the identical process

is called "bluing". The reason is that if you polish a part (S&W revolver) and run it thru a black oxide process you get the

beautiful blue finish. Take the same gun, sandblast it, run it thru the same black oxide process and it will come out

flat black.

The rear sight on this gun has a purple color which is indicative that it was run through the Dulite/Black Oxide at

the wrong temperature and when sitting on top of the receiver with the slate grey finish my vote is that the sight was

not processed at the same time, with the same process as the receiver, but fitted later. Ditto the barrel which has a

bright blue finish in contrast to the grey receiver. I do not think this affects the value, its just interesting...

 

Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Savage rear sight rivets typically had a slightly domed appearance on the top, and flat on the bottom. The OP's rear sight is a later replacement for an original Lyman L sight. These were typically replaced when damaged.

 

The gun shows no signs of Ordnance depot or arsenal rebuild that I can see.

 

Can't tell from the photos whether the gun retains the M1 "bright" bolt or not. An M1A1 bolt is fully interchangeable. These were always Dulite finished when new.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

reconbob has summed things up nicely. There is little doubt this beautiful M1 Thompson left the Savage factory in the summer of 1942 with the early or L rear sight. The information about the Dulite finish is worth making a note of - thank you I am not surprised about the blue barrel and how it does not match the dulite finished receiver. Major and minor parts on original finish guns are often different colors. Those who study the M1 carbine come to understand this quickly.

 

A Freedom of Information Act request would identify when this M1 was originally registered with the IRS and how many owners before being sold to wcwarren's father.

 

It was a common occurrence in the past for machine gun dealers to modify guns to a popular configuration. Converting Colt 1921A to the 1921AC configuration happened on a regular basis because the compensator look was more desirable. Same for replacing the L rear sight on the military guns. That said, I agree with Bob that nothing has been done to this M1 that affects value.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...