Petroleum 1 Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 (edited) Gwick...ty for the comments. Yes the gun is in mint condition. The vet who brought it back refinished the stock himself but other than that it is completely as he picked it up in France. I bought it from the nephew who inherited it. He said his uncle never shot it just kept it as a war trophy. Here are the markings on my 38/42. Edited September 23, 2019 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 More Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted September 23, 2019 Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 Gwick...this site is a good place to ask some beretta questions it is monitored by people from Italy and every other European country they might have some answers. http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2019 Thanks, I certainly check it out! Some pretty good answers here so far .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsonlmg41 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 So a little more info. The CN is not part of the serial #, since you would not have that and a prefix separated that far apart in different sizes. The arrow, is not a broad arrow (and I feel cheated since Petroleum 1 has a complete arrow and I only got half) but in 38/42's for dummies I now see you line up the arrows on the cap and receiver to get the end cap in the proper position to twist it on. Interesting what you learn when you sit down and compare these things. I see your bolt is stamped PB, mine does not have this stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 Johnson...yes it is interesting how many slightly different markings are noted on these guns. I believe mine is considered a 38/43 with the smooth barrel and simplified markings but yet it is registered as a 38/42. Actually I don't think there was ever an official 38/43 just something noted to separate the early and late war models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 Who would have the definitive answers? There are many opinions on the 4UT as well as other markings (e.g.serial number). I have a tendency to agree that the letters are not part of the serial number by logic and nothing else - if it were, wouldn't it be in the same font and on the other parts of the gun as well? Just a guess as I know very little - and I know Kanister is well versed in this stuff. Would love to see a list of serial numbers and history. Much of my gun's markings match Petroleum1's - curious how many were actually made? This is where the serial number with the letters does make sense - if the serial numbers are truly in sequence, there are only 4734 units between my gun and Petroleum1's, unless they reset them if there are changes (e.g. fluted to smooth). Assuming yours was made in '44 and mine in '43, production numbers were very low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 Kanister, I believe you also mentioned the name in another post - if it's MP (vs Mosch Autom), it was sold to the Wehrmacht vs Italians? What's the best, most accurate way to reconcile the marks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 I don't know now the nunber of MAB produced during nthe war, but I can try to find it.I can only remember that on last months of war Beretta produced each month 30.000' guns. Yes, the short barrel MAB 38/41, 38/42, 38/43,...were produced to be sold to Germany, ( and so the MP, Maschinen Pistole) also before the surrender, but they were not sold only to Germans: when they were at hand they were sold to every authorized Italian organization. Beretta nomenclature knows only the MAB 38/42: the partition is a experts invention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 A little memorandum for those that write that CN means "Camicie Nere": the camicie nere were the members of the "Milizia Volontaria Sicurezza Nazionale", so the writing would be "MVSN" and not CN, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 In a book that I have it mentions 200k 38/42's mfg'd by the end of '44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 That being the case, the CN has to be a part of the serial number. Mfg of the gun began in '38 (I believe) and in 7 years was up to 200K, which means 28K annually (on average of coarse) and 2.3K per month. There would have to be another part of the serial number to make it work - the evidence is the year between my gun and yours (Petroleum1) and the low variance in the numbers. Strange that the lettering is different and that they didn't carry it across the rest of the parts, but guess we would have to see the supply chain, manufacturing process and possibly machines to understand - meaning, maybe the numbers and letters were stamped at different times by different machines and/or the configuration and availability of machines. For example, maybe there was only one serial 3551 going through the factory at once, but had the CN applied going out the door - totally making it up. Interesting trying to piece it together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) Production began on 1938, but with few numbers: PAI, Police, and Rumanian contract.Italian army started to buy the MAB only on 1940, always with little numbers.Mass production started only after the Repubblican Army was born. (I forgot: Serial R is the only with five number, it was sold to Romania) Edited September 24, 2019 by kanister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) kanister...are you including the full size 38 and 38a?? was the 38/42 mfg started in '38?? I thought the germans asked the Italians to make a smaller simplified version of the 38a for the Wehrmacht . I would think that would have been around '41 ish?? Edited September 24, 2019 by Petroleum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) kanister...are you including the full size 38 and 38a?? was the 38/42 mfg started in '38?? I thought the germans asked the Italians to make a smaller simplified version of the 38a for the Wehrmacht . I would think that would have been around '41 ish??Yes, the short barrel production started on 1941 but the receiver was the same and the serial numbers were mixed. There was no Mod. 38, the first production was the MAB 38A.Mod 38 was only a prototipe that never left the factory and is still on the Beretta museum. Edited September 24, 2019 by kanister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 Hmm i thought the initial 38 had the open compensator and bayonet attachment. The mod to the compensator and removal of the bayonet mount for the Italian army made it the 38a. This is not the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 Hmm i thought the initial 38 had the open compensator and bayonet attachment. The mod to the compensator and removal of the bayonet mount for the Italian army made it the 38a. This is not the case?NO, the experimental 38 had the eject port ad 12 o'clock, while the 38A ad it at 11 o'clockFirst 38A had the big open compensator and bayonet lug you say and they were only for the PAI (Polizia Africa Italiana) but were forgotten at the 1939 end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 I am still trying to reconcile the serial numbers. If it was a straight serial number with the letters, each to 9999, by CN, there would be almost a million units released. Of course they could have skipped number or ranges of combinations. I am curious if it is actually a combination with meaningful prefixes. Meaning, yes, it's part of the serial number, but also has meaning like the "R" for Romania? Do we know that "CN" is definitely not Camicia Nera? Maybe they used it as a "smart" serial number. Camicia Nera ordered 5000 units and when they got to CN 5000, their run was complete. Again, grasping at straws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 A little memorandum for those that write that CN means "Camicie Nere": the camicie nere were the members of the "Milizia Volontaria Sicurezza Nazionale", so the writing would be "MVSN" and not CN, "Camicia Nera" is like your "private". Do your army order a batch of gun only for private and require to mark them separately? I think no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 The answer is ... maybe. Think about it from the manufacturing side and employing a smart numbering system. If I have a batch that is going to a particular group, I can segment them easily through the process. Happened frequently in manufacturing processes - CN is basically a batch number. I am certainly not arguing for it, as it was a total and complete riff on what I read through this post and completely uninformed. My knowledge is based on the little I have read online and what you guys have posted. Trying to make sense of their serial numbering scheme as it may give me additional info. Definitely not sequential and as you mention they did use R for Romania - so would be the same concept. Is there any insight into the early numbering system? I assume it's certainly not random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWick123 Posted September 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 IA called the other day looking for consignments and I threw out a few "what if" questions and what I gather was that if you send them a lot, over 100K, they would negotiate reduction or elimination of the sellers fee of 20%. They wouldn't commit to a dollar number but I kept increasing it over 60K on a couple guns and the answer was still no, so I'm extrapolating. If the 57K gun was consigned the seller may have netted 38,.7K. Certainly not chump change, but the odds of repeating seem slim to me? Of course there's no way of confirming whether or not they actually collected a 57K check? Are these places mailing 1099's......someone please chime in?RIA gave me the same range as the one that sold for $57K -> $14K-$22.5K - interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 (edited) Delete. Duplicate Edited September 25, 2019 by huggytree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huggytree Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 To get $57,000= lightning striking twice in the same spot I think its value is $15,000 like another suggested. Too few come up to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanister Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 Two pics of Beretta receivers I took from the net:- first one from this forum- and the second one of a Rumanian contract with five numbers on s/n.You can see that the letters are separate from the numbers and have different shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petroleum 1 Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 Did the Romanians buy the 38a?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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