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British Army WW2 Small Arms Training Pamphlet 21


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#41 rpbcps

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:04 PM

In this mornings mail, I received two more SAT 21's, another Canadian version printed in 1944, but reprinted in 1948 and another printed by the M.E.F. printing and stationary service in Cairo, but this one is dated 1944. I have added these to the original post, with photos.

 

Stay safe

Richard

 

 

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#42 rpbcps

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 02:28 PM

This evening I stumbled upon an interesting photo, which I had not seen before. It shows British troops, maybe Home Guard, I can not make out the shoulder titles on the uniforms, receiving Thompson submachine gun training.

 

Bottom right of the photo is something I found of interest, two Thompson transit chests, referred to in post #1.

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

 

Attached File  HG TSMG Transit chests.JPG   139.33K   25 downloads

 

 

Here is a link, originally posted almost 10 years ago, which covers the British Thompson Transit chests in more detail.

http://www.machinegu...topic=11386&hl=


Edited by rpbcps, 06 March 2019 - 06:14 AM.

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#43 rpbcps

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 02:57 PM

 


In post #19 the photos in the first version of The Thompson Submachine Gun Mechanism Made Easy by Gale & Polden show two different TSMG's being fired from the shoulder. One has no Cutts compensater and a drum magazine, the other photo has a gun with a compensater and 20 round mag.

Perhaps the gun without a compensater was a Colt gun? Pity these pam's are undated.

 

Regardds

 

AlanD

Sydney

 

Alan,

Well spotted, I thought I had been good at identifying and noting all the differences, but obviously for that detail, I couldn't see the forest for the trees, although it was in plain sight.

 

It is possible that this example is one of the early Savage guns that AOC supplied without compensators, at the request of the British looking to reduce costs. In Oct 1940 an order was placed by the British for 27,000 Thompson without compensators and there are several photos of TSMGs without Compensators being used, by both commando and Home guard units. 

 

attachicon.gif cmd_norge.jpg      attachicon.gif 6th Order TSMG.jpg 

 

As stated in the original post above, Tom Davis provides details on the Model of 1928s bought by the British without compensators in his book, 'Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story', a recommend read for anyone interested in the early WW2 history of the TSMG and you'll find more photos of TSMGs without compensators in there.

 

​Then again, circumstantial evidence in the Gale & Polden booklets you refer too, may support your assumption, as the markings on the Thompson photographed on page 9 appears to be Colt's Patent Firearms Mfg Co etc. and the photo on page 25 is damning support for your argument.

 

 

attachicon.gif Thompson SMG Mechanism made Easy V2 Page 9.JPG  attachicon.gif Thompson SMG Mechanism made Easy V2 Page 25.JPG

 

Stay safe

 

​Richard 

 

A higher definition copy of the Photo showing the 1928A's.

Attached File  HG Model of 1928A.JPG   84.78K   20 downloads


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#44 john

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 09:01 PM

Def home guard. First pic patch shows home guard but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular for es so were given Home Guard.
Second pic definitely older guys.
Love the second pic with the guys nose touching the back of the pilot.
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#45 rpbcps

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Posted 06 March 2019 - 07:58 AM

Def home guard. First pic patch shows home guard but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular for es so were given Home Guard.
Second pic definitely older guys.
Love the second pic with the guys nose touching the back of the pilot.

 

John, 

With reference to your post "but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular forces so were given Home Guard", I'd like to draw your attention to something I recently read, which prior to reading, I had the same perception of the Home Guard myself. 

 

By chance during an internet search, I came across a PhD thesis wrote by a British Army Veteran Dale Clarke, titled “Arming the British Home Guard, 1940-1944”.

 

In this he points out, it is a  misconception that the home guard was made up entirely of elderly men and younger men not fit for service, which he points out is due to the post war film and TV industry’s ‘perception’ of the Home guard portrayed in the classic 1970’s British TV comedy series Dads Army.. Dale Clarke states "In the public mind Dad’s Army was the Home Guard, and the Home Guard was Dad’s Army. More than that, Dad’s Army is seen to represent the armed aspect of the Home Front”. He does points out though that,  “Indeed, entire demographic groups are omitted – specifically, female auxiliaries, men of military age in reserved occupations, and the political (left-wing) element that was so influential during the earlier part of the Home Guard’s existence” 

 

In his thesis he also mentions the Thompson gun, although repeating the story that half of the Thompsons sent to Britain were lost to U-Boat attacks crossing the Atlantic, a subject Tom Davis dispels with facts in his book “Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story.

 

“Given the desperate imperative to provide submachine guns to the British army, and the fact that half the guns ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic, that any were issued to the Home Guard must be taken as evidence of the importance of the Home Guard as a military force – to share such a scarce resource in desperate circumstances, cannot easily be dismissed as ‘tokenism’. Indeed once sufficient supplies of the mass-produced Sten ‘machine carbine’ were available in 1943, all Thompsons were withdrawn from the Home Guard and issued to regular units”.

 

If interested, you can access Dale Clarkes thesis, free of charge on:

https://dspace.lib.c...64/1/Clarke D M

 

or buy a copy, it is now published as a book:

https://www.amazon.c...&ref=nb_sb_noss

 

I enjoyed reading the thesis myself, which is well researched.

 

Stay safe

Richard


Edited by rpbcps, 08 March 2019 - 07:57 AM.

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#46 mnshooter

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Posted 06 March 2019 - 10:58 AM

Def home guard. First pic patch shows home guard but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular for es so were given Home Guard.
Second pic definitely older guys.
Love the second pic with the guys nose touching the back of the pilot.

 

As both bolts are forward, and no ejected brass in sight, I'll figure they were just posing, and their schnozzes suffered no damage. :happy:


Edited by mnshooter, 06 March 2019 - 11:00 AM.

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#47 rpbcps

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Posted 06 March 2019 - 02:06 PM

Def home guard. First pic patch shows home guard but as men are younger I'd guess those were guys deemed unfit for service in regular for es so were given Home Guard.
Second pic definitely older guys.
Love the second pic with the guys nose touching the back of the pilot.

 

As both bolts are forward, and no ejected brass in sight, I'll figure they were just posing, and their schnozzes suffered no damage. :happy:

 

I'd agree, part of the British propaganda campaign in 1940 following Dunkirk, to show the Germans they were better equipped,  than they actually were, as they desperately awaited delivery of weapons from the USA.

 

Here is another propaganda shot... with a 'surplus' Tommy gun, lying on the ground! One with a horizontal fore grip and the other two appear to have Vertical fore grips.

Attached File  HG Exercise.JPG   117.99K   7 downloads


Edited by rpbcps, 07 March 2019 - 01:21 PM.

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#48 rpbcps

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 02:20 PM

Until recently I have never seen or heard anyone else who has found any Small Arms training Volume 1 pamphlets produced by South Africa, so I presumed they may have not produced one.

 

Then I stumbled upon one, SAT Pamphlet No.5 for the Anti-Tank Rifle produced in 1942 by the Union of South Africa.

 

Attached File  USA SAT 5.JPG   35.2K   4 downloads

 

So I presume that SAT Pamphlet No.21 for the Thompson Machine Carbine also exists. As the pamphlet above also states the 1942 edition supersedes a previous one, I am presuming, maybe wrongly, there may be a whole series of the pamphlet, like the British, Canadian, and New Zealand versions, produced in 1940, 1942 and 1944.

 

Stay safe

Richard


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#49 rpbcps

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 06:43 PM

I have edited the original post #1, with the addition of two more SAT 21 Pamphlets, with photos, that I have recently added to my collection.

 

They are both written in the Hebrew language, they are dated 1942 and 1946.

 

Stay safe

Richard 


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#50 rpbcps

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 04:15 PM

Union of South Africa, Small Arms Training Volume 1 Pamphlet 21,The Machine Carbine 1944, found and photo added to post # 1

 

Stay safe

Richard


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