WWII Browning .303 MKII MGs - help with ID?

[Caroline]

Hi David,

Yes! The markings / serial numbers on mine are in exactly the same place (I've attached a photo though they're a little hard to see).

I've had another look at the spade grips and tried to chip off a bit more but created an even bigger crack so I'm leaving them be. With a closer look though, it appears that they've been squashed a little - certainly on the right-hand side I think. I've attached a few photos of the left-hand side view and one from the back to try to show you what I mean (apologies for the poor quality photos - I just took some quick snaps now before it gets dark). Measuring from the top of the receiver, the spade grips extend to a height of about 40-45 mm (bit of estimation involved there in guessing the thickness of the concretion).

I've also attached a couple of happy snaps of the M2s. They're upside down at the moment (I have to figure a way to flip them over without squashing the bit of case ejection chute that's still attached) and I've only started cleaning one so far. I'll get some better photos of them to send on as I go. A part number on the ejection chute very kindly allowed me to ID these as from a Bendix Upper Turret, so for Darwin that's probably B-24 Liberator or B-25 Mitchell bomber. And these are in beautiful condition - the metal is rock solid

 

 

 

[RoscoeTurner]

Hi RoscoeTurner,

Yes definitely re. patrol bombers, particularly PBYs. I should've provided a bit more context for these in my post - the were recovered from just outside an RAAF Flying Boat Base that was established specifically for PBY squadrons and we've found quite a few dumped Cat parts. Strangely enough though, we've also found parts from Spitfires and Liberator bombers - neither of which make a lot of sense as there was no land based air strip anywhere near the base. That's one reason I thought these Brownings were unusual as I'd assumed that PBYs would use the US .30 cal. I could very easily be entirely wrong about that though (!) Do you know if Commonwealth purchased PBYs were adapted to use the British versions?

Thanks again

Caroline,

 

Many aircraft contracts called for the aircraft to be equipped with various items unique to the purchasing country such as gauges, radios and armament. If not many were modified by the receiving country after delivery.

 

I found this link regarding a Cat with the Australian National Aviation Museum, possibly they would have information about specific equipment used by the RAAF on their Cats. http://www.aarg.com.au/consolidated-pby-catalina.html

 

This link lists the armament for the RAAF Cats - http://www.airforce.gov.au/raafmuseum/research/aircraft/series2/A24.htm

 

ARMAMENT:

 

Two 0.303" machine guns in bow turret, two 0.5" machine guns in each side blister, plus one 0.303 gun in central position aft of step; bomb load, 1814 kg (4,000 lb).

 

 

As you probably already know the RAAF Cats played an extremely important role in the early days of the war in the Pacific in particular in the Solomon Islands area. A fact that is often overlooked in the telling of that campaign.

[Caroline]

Hi Roscoe,

That's very interesting re. RAAF possibly adapting the armament on Cats; especially the RAAF website specifically listing the guns as .303. To be honest, it never really occurred to me. We've previously found large dumps of ammunition in several parts of the harbour and the ones I've been able to look at were all US manufactured .50 cal and 20 mm. I think I've just had it stuck in my head that the US aircraft purchased by RAAF retained their original armament with required ammunition sourced from the US.

Forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but what would the advantage be for RAAF to adapt from .30 cal to the .303?

It's funny you should mention the Solomons; I was actually reading up about the US Black Cats the other day. Catalinas often seem to be overlooked, I think. The RAAF base we're looking at wasn't established until mid 1944; but the Cat Squadrons based there were still vital in many operations in Indonesia and PNG.

Thanks again,

Caroline.

[RoscoeTurner]

Hi Roscoe,

That's very interesting re. RAAF possibly adapting the armament on Cats; especially the RAAF website specifically listing the guns as .303. To be honest, it never really occurred to me. We've previously found large dumps of ammunition in several parts of the harbour and the ones I've been able to look at were all US manufactured .50 cal and 20 mm. I think I've just had it stuck in my head that the US aircraft purchased by RAAF retained their original armament with required ammunition sourced from the US.

Forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but what would the advantage be for RAAF to adapt from .30 cal to the .303?

It's funny you should mention the Solomons; I was actually reading up about the US Black Cats the other day. Catalinas often seem to be overlooked, I think. The RAAF base we're looking at wasn't established until mid 1944; but the Cat Squadrons based there were still vital in many operations in Indonesia and PNG.

Thanks again,

Caroline.

Caroline,

 

The advantages for using the .303 guns versus the .30 cal would be common parts and ammunition in the Commonwealth supply chain in addition to end the user being more familiar with them.

 

Stanley Jersey in his book Hell's Islands, The Untold Story of Guadalcanal spends a good bit of time in the first chapters detailing the RAAF Catalinas operating out of Tulagi prior the island's capture by the Japanese. If for only those first few chapters the book is worth a look at, great bit of Australian history.

[emmagee1917]

If they have you blocked , there is nothing I can do.

I went to photobucket , but they won't let me access my library right now to send them to you .

If you can get on there , look at the ANM2 pics.

Chris

[Caroline]

Hi Chris,

Yeh, I don't know why they've got me blocked. I'm on a shared work server at the moment, so that might be why. I'll have another try when I get back on my personal computer.

Thanks again.

[colorado1919]

The reciever markings on ANM2 .50cal are on the right sideplate under the top cover.

 

[emmagee1917]

Ok , used Firefox on photobucket and my albums opened . I hope the links work for you . The first album is sights and such that came with the two guns .The sub-albums are breakdowns of each part group of the two guns . Both are Buffalo arms .

http://s296.photobucket.com/user/emmagee1917/library/ANM2%20parts

 

This next album is years later showing what I started with , what I had to modify from other weapon systems , what I had to build from scratch , and the two resulting USMC Stinger copies . The right sideplates are still cut , and I'm trying to get semi auto sideplates made so they will " live " again , but Dr. Frankenstein had less problems , I fear .

These " free" guns have cost me about $3,000 so far in research time , parts , and shop time / materials so far . I figure anouther $3,000 to complete .

http://s296.photobucket.com/user/emmagee1917/library/ANM2%20reborn

 

Chris

[gunhistorian]

I don't know how helpful this is, but there there is a series of books (official publications similar to the U.S. Army "green book" series: The U.S. Army in World War II as well as the British publications by H.M. Stationery Office on the UK in World War II) published by the Australian government which might be helpful in determining sources of supply, etc., particularly aircraft, aircraft armament, etc. While this won't provide specifics such as serial numbers, etc., it might be helpful in general research. If I recall correctly -- and I can't remember the source (maybe Dolf G.'s book on Browning m.g.s) -- Buffalo Arms was "funded" by the British (tools, dies, etc.) and was a division of Hershey-Houdaille (not sure of spelling) because Colt's P.F.A. could not produce sufficient machine guns fast enough. (Note: the two HMSO publications that I used fairly extensively in research was "North American Supply" and "Overseas Supply".) I realize this is very general info, but it might give a little guidance to people researching this type of thing.

[Caroline]

Hi colorado1919,

Thank you very much for the photo and description on where the receiver markings are. I've just been able to get the guns turned over and was able to a better look at the right sideplate as you mentioned, and there it was! The markings are very faint because of corrosion and I'd missed them initially, but once I knew where to look, I saw it right away. Ironically, just like the photo example you posted, mine are also Savage Arms Corp.

Thanks again

[Caroline]

Hi Chris,

Yes! Thank you, the links worked perfectly! There's some great photos on there and really helpful breakdown for me. Thank you very much. Looking through the second album of the ANM2 reborn; that's such an amazing amount of work. Though sorry to hear you've had a harder job of it than Dr. Frankenstein! How long did they take you? They look awesome.

Thanks again for sharing your photos, I really appreciate it

[Caroline]

Hi gunhistorian,

Thank you very much for your reply. That's an absolutely excellent suggestion. I've briefly come across some of the US Army official publications series you mentioned (and found them to be very useful) and never even thought to look for Australian Govt. published ones for this (!) I've pretty much come to the conclusion that tracing the serial numbers is a next to impossible task and even if I were successful, might not actually shed a lot of light on how these guns ended up where they were. Background general information and knowledge, especially re. manufacture and supply, is something I definitely need more of and your idea is perfect.

Thank you so much

[emmagee1917]

Hi Chris,

Yes! Thank you, the links worked perfectly! There's some great photos on there and really helpful breakdown for me. Thank you very much. Looking through the second album of the ANM2 reborn; that's such an amazing amount of work. Though sorry to hear you've had a harder job of it than Dr. Frankenstein! How long did they take you? They look awesome.

Thanks again for sharing your photos, I really appreciate it

 

 

I recieved these from a friend as a " thank you " gift for all the little helps I'd given him over the years back on Christmas time of '09 ( has it been that long ? Wow ! ) . I started by breaking them down and seeing about making them alive in semi-auto form . Took me awhile looking at the only two known pictures of one of the six original stingers made , the actual reports about them by people who were there during the building and use , and pictures of the various copies others had built . It didn't take long to see that the copies were not close to the original in the picture , but because of the poor quality of the two original pictures , it was not as easy to see why . Also , with six being made by hand , basicly , there was no guarentee that all were the same . Also , I don't have the full story behind the two known pictures . I noticed such things as the comments they set the Stingers up to use the 100 round cloth belts used in the tanks and such , but shows a 250-ish round aircraft can in the pictures , which is awkwards , heavy , unbalanced , knee banging do-dad . The boxes I made were my figureing of what they made from scrap aluminum around thier shop . I made many a cardboard cutout of the can / bipod / carry handle unit till I could achieve the look and shadows in the pictures . The carry handle is another question that kept me looking for months because of it's shape till I saw that the dive bomber ANM2 grips were the ones used . Easy to figure once the answer is known .

So this project has advanced little by little over about 4 years till they were at where you see now . I did rig one up as a single shot and spent a morning at the range with it . I does shoot to point of aim and is about a 5-6 MOA weapon over the 20-30 rounds fired . Not nearly as accurate as my OOW BAR , but with the wispery barrel free floating around , I'm happy .

Now , if someone would just produce a semi - sideplate and a milling conversion pattern like for the 1919A4s.......

Chris

[MG08]

I have been corresponding with Caroline via email. I have attached some of the photos I sent her, just so guys here can see the gun and cradle assembly. Bob - the spade grips on Caroline's gun look to be similar to the African campaign guns used up into the 60s. Information I got from her indicates the base was in use well after the war. Equipment looks like it may have been partially stripped , damaged and dumped.....http://photos.imageevent.com/blinde/weponscollection/websize/mount%201.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/blinde/weponscollection/websize/Pic%201.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/blinde/weponscollection/websize/Pic%202.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/blinde/weponscollection/websize/Pic%2014.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/blinde/weponscollection/websize/Pic%206.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/blinde/weponscollection/websize/attachment.php.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/blinde/weponscollection/websize/attachment%204.php.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/blinde/weponscollection/websize/attachment%202.php.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/blinde/weponscollection/websize/VxHnhJY.jpg

Edited August 27, 2015 by MG08

[Caroline]

Hiya Chris, sorry I just saw your last post. I just did some Googling on Stingers, not knowing a lot about them. What a seriously fascinating gun and backstory. I can sure see how you had your work cut out for you though but such an amazing project to undertake. And there's only two known pictures of the originals?! Extra hard. How did you manage to find those pictures? I wonder what happened to those six original Stingers, if they lived on anywhere....

[emmagee1917]

Those two pictures are on several sites , so they are well known . What is not known is when and where they were taken . These may be of the first produced one being shown off to the local powers that be to secure permission / shop time / supplies to build more . That could explain it's differences between it and what was discribed .It could be one of the later ones after the war with the large box added for the pictures because that was what was available .

As to the location of the 6 originals , i'm afraid they are lost to time . Perhaps they sit in the storage crate next to the Ark.

Chris

[Browningman]

Hiya,

I'm an archaeologist working on a collection of dumped WWII materiel associated with a RAAF base in Darwin Harbour, Northern Territory. We've recovered a couple of machine guns that I'm almost certain are aircraft version Browning .303 MKII. My knowledge of machine guns is fairly limited though (!) and I'd love to be able to have ID confirmation from an expert. (And please forgive any massively ignorant questions from me!). I have managed to get serial numbers off both of them though - MK II / B 136.752 / B on one and MK II B 868.881 / B on other.

I'd also very much appreciate any thoughts or insight into these guns and whether there's any way to narrow down what type of aircraft they may have come from based on fittings and mounts. One has been largely stripped, is missing back plate and breech cover and has had the barrel / cooling jacket bent, so doesn't give much info except for the mounting lugs and brackets, I'd guess. The second has several fittings still attached, has a different cooling jacket arrangement and has spade grips (so I'm figuring it must be from a flexible mount?). I'm also unfamiliar with some of the fittings; it seems to have a feed chute of some type that I've never seen before.

Unfortunately, both have been in the water for around 60 years and aren't in great condition. They were also both heavily covered in marine growth and concretion and I've only been able to remove some areas of concretion without breaking things.

I've attached a few photos of both guns. I'd very much appreciate any thoughts, advice or suggestions for research.

Thank you very much.

Best wishes,

Caroline.

I may have dug up an old thread, but I just wanted to say what an amazing find. I just won one of these guns at auction that should be arriving soon and I get excited seeing them.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Browningman