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New Guy with Early British Savage


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Thanks again for all the info everyone. Greatly appreciated.


I've looked over the barrel where it attaches to the receiver - there are no marks and the bottom is destroyed with the two pins. Am I correct that the notch in front of Brit proofs (pictured in my original post) on the right side of the receiver near the barrel was used as a witness mark for barrel? There are no such notches on the barrel itself.

 

In any case, it sounds like consensus is that I need an S marked barrel with a type 2 Cutts and this will be very hard to find. If anyone has one, please let me know. It's near Christmas - maybe a miracle will happen? :happy:

 

I've attached the requested picture of the bottom of the frame where the serial has been scrubbed and re-blued.

 

 

post-261669-0-52659600-1544202992_thumb.jpg

Edited by kp31
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This forum is awesome for sourcing parts. Usually some guy will post a For Sale thread and have a bunch of parts for sale. They usually sell within a few hours of the posting. Maybe post a wanted thread so the folks who do read this thread will see the title and think of you before they post. Other than that I would wait and be patient for the right parts to come.

 

If it does not pop up for sale here after a while, someone may post an example currently for sale elsewhere. The community is really cool about pointing people to good parts for sale around the web. Good luck this is a cool project.

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kp31,

Thanks for posting the picture of the frame.

 

I believe a Freedom of Information request would provide you some valuable insight as to the provenance of your early Savage. Contact me via PM and I will be glad to assist. It is a relatively easy and straight forward process.

 

-------------------------------

 

I do not refer to the part of a finned Thompson barrel that touches or tightens up against the receiver as a fin. I refer to this part of the barrel as the barrel collar. I don't know which is correct, fin or collar, if either.

 

While my study of the early Savage Thompson is far from complete, I have noted many of the earliest Savage barrels do not have an index line on the barrel collar that mates with the index line on the right side of the receiver. That said, it is very common to find an "S" mark on the left or opposite side of the barrel collar. I do not have definitive serial number ranges for this observation. However, it appears to me that Savage Thompsons in the 21,000 serial number range had both the "S" mark and index line on opposite sides of the barrel collar. And some barrels have a "P" or proof marking on the top of the barrel collar.

 

The reason for the "S" marking on the barrel collar on the early Savage guns is obvious. The first contract between Auto-Ordnance (AOC) and Savage Arms was for 10,000 Model of 1928 Thompson guns. At the time of execution, December 1939, Colt's guns were still being sold by AOC. No one at Savage Arms knew if this first contract would be the only contract, therefore it appeared Savage Arms did not subcontract any of the manufacturing work other than the compensator and rear sight to other companies. Later in 1940 when sales or orders increased, mainly from the British MoS, additional contracts between AOC and Savage Arms were executed and subcontractors were hired. The first subcontractor was most likely the sister company to Savage Arms, Stevens Arms.

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I own British Thompson S-62648, New York address. The index mark on the right side of the receiver lines up

perfectly with the index mark on the barrel, so I assume the barrel is original. The top of the barrel has the P mark,

which appears to have been punched in (presumably after the barrel was installed?). On the left side of the barrel

is the square S (Stevens) mark. This mark is lying on its side, parallel with the barrel. I recall reading that the

Stevens mark occurs at the three o’clock rather than at the nine o’clock position on some guns. Is this correct?

Comments please...

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kp31

 

These early British contract Savage made guns are especially intere4ting. Your gun has the Enfield inspection mark at the end of the frame where the barrel screws in. I cant quite see from the photographs but does it also have the so called Woolwich mark of a W inside a crown?

 

Regards

 

AlanD

Sydney

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Mk VII,

Great example of the British middle sight!

 

Jack Wright,

A Stevens Arms barrel on S-62648 would be normal. I have seen the location of the manufacturer markings at different places on the barrel collar. Nothing unusual there. No reason to suspect the barrel is not original based on your post.

 

AlanDavid,

Great question! I doubt kp31's S-21146 has the Woolwich mark. But I bet Jack Wright's S-62648 has the mark. Perhaps Jack can post some pictures.

 

kp31,

Two of the foremost experts on early Savage Thompson guns just posted on this thread, Mk VII and AlanDavid. I have learned a lot over the years from both of them.

 

An example of the Woolwich mark can be found on page 53 of my book. Note from whose collection.

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Here are some pictures of Jack's S-62648 Savage Thompson - a very British Tommy Gun!

 

The picture with arrows points out the Woolwich mark and the GEG markings on the left side of the receiver.

 

All good stuff!!!

 

IMG_0126 with arrows.jpg IMG_0116.jpg

 

IMG_0136.jpg IMG_0120.jpg

 

IMG_0135.jpg IMG_0121.jpg

 

IMG_0137.jpg IMG_0122.jpg

 

IMG_0131.jpg IMG_0127.jpg

 

IMG_0124.jpg IMG_0125.jpg

Edited by TD.
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Great pics, gijive. Everyone is probably wondering: how did a PD end up owning a British Thompson. I have a possible answer.

I did an FOIA request on my gun several years ago. One of the docs I received is a Form 2, Return Of Firearms Maunfactured,

Imported, Or Received. It is dated 26 August 1957. The name of the organization receiving the imported firearms is blacked

out, but from examination of other docs appears to have been international Armanent Corporation, Washington, D.C. The list

of guns reimported on the Form 2 contains 56 S Savage guns and five AOC Auto Ordinance guns. The guns are presumably

listed by serial number. Mine, 62648, is number three on the list, so presumably there were two reimported with lower serial

numbers. With the single exception of my gun, all of the actual serial numbers are blacked out. Only the prefix, S or AOC,

is shown. I am willing to bet that the PD gun in gijive’s post above is on the list of blacked-out serial numbers in this document!

Other docs in the package I received clearly show that Interarms sold these guns to several organizations and individuals,

although the identity of the purchasers is blacked out. If anyone else has done an FOIA request on his British Thompson he

very well may have received the same doc I have but with only the serial number of his gun shown. If so, please comment...

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Hi all... By all means possible, get it to Paul at Diamond K. Come back looking like new. Mine did... R

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Great pics, gijive. Everyone is probably wondering: how did a PD end up owning a British Thompson. I have a possible answer.

I did an FOIA request on my gun several years ago. One of the docs I received is a Form 2, Return Of Firearms Maunfactured,

Imported, Or Received. It is dated 26 August 1957. The name of the organization receiving the imported firearms is blacked

out, but from examination of other docs appears to have been international Armanent Corporation, Washington, D.C.

While the import markings on British marked TSMG's that wound up at PDs does usually guarantee the TSMGs saw service aborad and were marked at Birmingham or Enfield England, there were British marked TSMGs that went directly to a PD from Savage/AOC.

 

Frank Iannamico stated in "American Thunder:.

Guns that were made under contract for the British military were subjected to inspection and were often stamped with prolific British military marks. It is believed that British inspectors were assigned to the Savage factory in Utica, New York to inspect and stamp the Thompson guns that were being made for them under contract. British military acceptance marks were a a crown over a letter/number combination that indicated who inspected the weapon, and additional letters indicating where the inspection took place.

 

 

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