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New to Me C&R STEN Mk II


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#21 DZelenka

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 04:06 PM

It may ony be a C below the arrow. I took pictures from several angles to see if I could catch the stamps just right. They are faint.

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#22 m3bobby

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 05:47 PM

The small marks are inspectors marks.

Check the barrel is installed in the correct orientation. When they fitted the barrels, they would test fire and move the barrel around until they found the best alignment and then ajust the front sight for best position. When they were happy, they would mark the barrel at the 12 oclock position so the barrel could be assembled correctly every time. Have a look on the end of the barrel for a fine line or number. It could be hidden under paint. If you cant see it, just rotate the barrel and test fire till you get the best result and mark it yourself.
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#23 DZelenka

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Posted 11 August 2018 - 06:00 PM

The small marks are inspectors marks.

Check the barrel is installed in the correct orientation. When they fitted the barrels, they would test fire and move the barrel around until they found the best alignment and then ajust the front sight for best position. When they were happy, they would mark the barrel at the 12 oclock position so the barrel could be assembled correctly every time. Have a look on the end of the barrel for a fine line or number. It could be hidden under paint. If you cant see it, just rotate the barrel and test fire till you get the best result and mark it yourself.

What about the arrow with the C?

 

I know about the witness mark on the barrel. I started it at 12 o'clock. clearly this isn't the original barrel. I moved it completely around the clock. the group at 7 yds was about 3" and it depended on how the barrel was oriented as to where the bullet landed. the center of the group was 4.5" right and 5.5" low.


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#24 huggytree

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 09:47 AM

i had a desert eagle that was 24" off at 25 yards..my solution was custom sights for my .44 setup and a red dot for my .50 setup....i suspect your going to have to do the same...make a custom front sight or put a red dot mount on it...

 

luckily mine is on up/down, but its off 6" to the left at 15 yards.....i can just bang the front sight over.....your front sight might be off the gun :)


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#25 m3bobby

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 02:29 AM

The C Arrow with 2 letters underneath is an inspectors mark, Ill try and get photos of my Faz today with the same marks.

With regards to the barrel, at some point in its rotation, you should find the grouping in vertical line with the sights and either high or low. There were numbered forsights to compensate for height and if you cut the weld there is some lateral movement. If the grouping doesnt move around the centre line as the barrel rotates, it could indicate the barrel seat isnt installed correctly and thats a big fix. It also could indicate a tube gun as the originals were jigged at assembly.
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#26 DZelenka

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 11:13 AM

The C Arrow with 2 letters underneath is an inspectors mark, Ill try and get photos of my Faz today with the same marks.

With regards to the barrel, at some point in its rotation, you should find the grouping in vertical line with the sights and either high or low. There were numbered forsights to compensate for height and if you cut the weld there is some lateral movement. If the grouping doesnt move around the centre line as the barrel rotates, it could indicate the barrel seat isnt installed correctly and thats a big fix. It also could indicate a tube gun as the originals were jigged at assembly.

I rotated the barrel and it did not move the point of impact sufficiently to center up the point of impact right to left. How do I tell if the seat is installed correctly or not? Can i indicate it in a lathe somehow? (I personally would not be doing it.) The only other thing I can think of is maybe changing barrels and barrel nuts.

 

The possibility of it being a tube gun had already crossed my mind. I looked all over the tube and cannot find any markings whatsoever. The Form 3 (eForm) that I received lists the manufacturer as "STEN" and the model as "STENMKII". It also uses the correct FF serial number found on the magazine well. What other indication of origin can I rely on? I emailed a FOIA request this morning; however, that will likely take a while to sort out. If it is C&R, it will likely be either amnesty registered or an importation form (6?), correct?

 

Dan


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#27 DZelenka

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 11:16 AM

i had a desert eagle that was 24" off at 25 yards..my solution was custom sights for my .44 setup and a red dot for my .50 setup....i suspect your going to have to do the same...make a custom front sight or put a red dot mount on it...

 

luckily mine is on up/down, but its off 6" to the left at 15 yards.....i can just bang the front sight over.....your front sight might be off the gun :)

 

This isn't going to work for me. C&R gun.


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#28 huggytree

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 04:02 PM

you can make or buy a mount that replaces your front barrel nut....they made AR 15 style ones with rails a while back......

 

mine shoots 6" to the right and i tried rotating the barrel around...it did nothing...i moved it 5x and it always shot on the same spot...but mine is a tube gun....not a C&R...i just have to tweak my sights over 1/4" or so and im spot on...

 

the front sight is just a triangle...you can make a larger or smaller one, move it to one side...doubt anyone would notice as its just a triangle piece of metal...if it were larger or smaller 1/4-1/2" i doubt it would show much to an average shooter you'd meet on a range...

 

tack a rail on a spare barrel nut...mount a red dot....it will look awesome :(


Edited by huggytree, 13 August 2018 - 04:02 PM.

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#29 DZelenka

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 08:46 PM

My seller had this Form 4 from an earlier transfer. Given the date, I am thinking that it isn't likely a tube gun. Thoughts?

 

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#30 m3bobby

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 03:47 PM

Hopefully some of these may make useful reference photos.

 

This ones an assortment of some of the collection. 

 

Attached File  IMG_2376.JPG   175.22K   13 downloads

 

Comparison of welds from an original finish Faz Mk2 and a Fin refurb Faz Mk2.

 

Attached File  IMG_2378.JPG   334.37K   12 downloads

 

You can see the welds on the head here, yours has extra welding around the head which may be to reinforce a week weld or one that's been ground down to far.

 

Attached File  IMG_2368.JPG   285.58K   10 downloads

 

Close up of the welds and the CF arrow marking

 

Attached File  IMG_2369.JPG   336.41K   10 downloads

 

Fin cocking handle, this one is from the Fin Mk2 shown above but I removed the handle as I intend to refinish it at some point.

 

Attached File  Fin Handle.jpg   55.33K   9 downloads


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#31 DZelenka

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Posted 14 August 2018 - 10:32 PM

I appreciate the photos. I keep reference photos of the various guns that I have. The one thing that I am seeing with they various pictures of STENs that I have looked at is the great deal of inconsistency. It may just be the small sample size. Thank you again. I’ll keep everyone informed as I learn things. Do you know a source for original barrels? I may get a couple to see if that will help me sight in? if you actually call it that.

Dan
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#32 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 15 August 2018 - 08:31 PM

I'd think it's an original gun.  In 73' there was zero demand for sten tube guns since originals were cheap.  Ideally if it were a tube gun, the tube would have been marked with the makers info, but rules were more lax then so that's not 100% and home builder form 1 guns were even more lax.   My C+R's are only marked on the mag well, even though it's again, a fairly small sample.   We do know for sure it's C+R by 2023 at the least.

 

So I just looked at your pictures on the first page and it looks like there was weld in the chamber cleaned up?  If so, I'd think pre-68 dewat, so definitely C+R.  In one of the pics the barrel looks crooked, but it may be the photo angle.  You'd have to strip it and chuck up the barrel and turn it on a drill press or lathe, or a piece of rod through the barrel to see if it's straight to the receiver.  The rod just needs to be long and straight, not necessarily  close to the bore dimension as long as you can gauge the distance off the receiver walls as you rotate it by hand it will give you a rough idea?   HTH


Edited by johnsonlmg41, 15 August 2018 - 08:40 PM.

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#33 michaelkih

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 02:04 AM

The welds on my C&R Faz Sten look exactly the same, and I know it was an amnesty registered bring back.  I bought it strait from the family.  So.....

 

Also, in the Collector Grade Sten book it shows Faz magwell welds looking exactly like this, so I think it's fine.

 

One thing, mine does have the safety hole, but it is a FL and not an FF gun.


Edited by michaelkih, 16 August 2018 - 02:12 AM.

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#34 michaelkih

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 02:12 AM

Mine for comparison.  Old picture I just found online, but you get the idea.DSC01972_zpsd39a0602.jpg

 

DSC01963_zpsf600cfda.jpg


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#35 m3bobby

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 05:37 AM

Its not the mag well welds I see issue with (Not that any of the welds are really an issue), its the welding on the head and the side plates to tube that have been ground smooth. The only large scale grinding was done by the Finns who smoothed all of theres during refurb. The assembly plants never bothered grinding welds down however some component contractors did to varying degrees, mag wells being an example, TMH covers being another. The additional welding on the head suggests some one, possibly an armourer in service or a post war owner has strengthened a week or loose head. This isn't a problem and it's just an extra part to it's history.

 

Attached File  IMG_1057.JPG   165.23K   3 downloads


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#36 m3bobby

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 05:45 AM

And I meant to say that the mag well was made by Mass Products.

 

Have you checked the split pin is still installed to the barrel sleeve?


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#37 DZelenka

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 09:30 AM

And I meant to say that the mag well was made by Mass Products.
 
Have you checked the split pin is still installed to the barrel sleeve?


There is a hole drilled in the barrel but no pin. Is that to what you are referring?
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#38 m3bobby

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Posted 16 August 2018 - 05:29 PM

Yes thats it, the barrel is pinned into the collar.
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#39 DZelenka

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Posted 17 August 2018 - 10:42 PM

All is right in the world.

Edited by DZelenka, 17 August 2018 - 10:52 PM.

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