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Colt Thompson SN# 1462


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I have been working hard on gathering up info on some of the Thompsons that I have in inventory that I think are related to the Texas Rangers. Gordon always told me that they were not Texas Ranger Guns but more likely Texas Highway Patrol Guns and wrote that in his book. I never could prove otherwise until just recently. In my quest for information I found out that there are actually two Texas Ranger Museums in Texas. One in Waco Texas, the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame and another in Fredericksburg Texas, Texas Rangers' Heritage Center. I had been dealing with the Waco operation mostly trying to gather up info on 5 weapons that were sold at a Department of Public Safety auction in May of 1984. Another source of info was from a Major Grover Huff in charge of Company B in Garland Texas. That is where I found a lead on #4196 and tracked down the last owner, Texas Ranger Ralph Wadsworth. In talking with him he mentioned another Texas Ranger by the name of Joe Davis, Jr. who was in the process of setting up the museum in Fredericksburg. I have been thinking about putting the weapons in one of the museums on loan for all to view and wanted to see what kind of operation they were putting together so I gave him a call to tell him what I was thinking about doing. Joe was a Texas Ranger from 1969 until 1993. Now retired. He was very receptive and during our conversation said that he carried a Thompson for many years. I said really!. Do you remember the serial number of the weapon? To my amazement he said, "yes". SN# 1462. BINGO! Talk about a stroke of luck. He then went on to tell me the whole story about how and where he got it. All of that he is now putting on a formal Texas Ranger letterhead. Now to dig deeper and found out who carried it before him

 

It was shipped to Petmecky Company in Austin Texas back in 1922. Petmecky was tight with the Texas Rangers back then and supplied them with weapons and equipment. So now the big question is how did it get from Petmecky to the Rangers and who bought and carried it. Also noteworthy is that the weapon looks to have been locked in a mount or rack of some type. In reading a book on Lone Wolf Gonzaullas I remember a comment about how he mounted a Thompson Sub-Machine in a 1932 Chrysler Coupe he was issued. Make you wonder doesn't it. In any case I am attaching a few pics for you guys to look at. It was used pretty hard. Only has about 75% to 80% of the finish left. Still looks to be correct and the wood is absolutely beautiful. I got it with the original hard case and an original "L" drum. It only came with one 20 round box mag. I added the others. I sent Davis the same pics and he confirmed it was his weapon. I sure wish this weapon could talk!

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Nick, Great job digging and great story!

 

The rush you get when you make a connection to the history of a gun is phenomenal - worth the effort.

 

Come to one of the Show / shoots some time and maybe you could give us a presentation of all of your interesting stuff - at least the Texas Ranger guns. We would love to see it!

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firearm,

 

In the John Boessenecker book, "Texas Ranger: The Epic Life of Frank Hamer", on page 257, there is discussion of some TSMG purchases that were made in 1922 by the Ranger Quartermaster, Roy Aldrich from Petmecky's; and Boessenecker notes that Aldrich bought at least one TSMG directly from Auto-Ordnance. More details of some of the Petmecky's purchases are given in the corresponding endnote on page 486.

 

The book "Lone Star Lawmen, The Second Century of the Texas Rangers" by Robert M. Utley has a number of sections that relate to Texas Ranger Capt. Manuel Gonzaullas. Photo Inset One, between pages 176 and 177 has three photos of Capt. Gonzaullas; one of which is of him in the armor protected Chrysler with a TSMG mounted in the front passenger seat. I have not ran across a photo of the trunk mounted TSMG.

 

Utley bemoans the "loss or destruction" of Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) records and depends, in part, on several academic studies for some of the information in his book. My own FOIA request to the Texas DPS was a polite but succinct 'not able to locate any responsive records'. Your direct contact with the Ranger individuals has been most informative. Thank you for posting the results of your pursuits.

 

MP

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I talked with Joe Davis again yesterday and he gave me a little more information. Some I already had. The "Storesroom" always kept a record of who had what weapon checked out to them on a blue file card. The "blue card" is what all the Rangers call it. Whenever a weapon was sold, the card was supposed to have gone with that weapon. Looks like that wasn't the case when the auction took place in 84. I got to thinking about that and wondered if they still might be in the Storesroom, if it still exist. Joe gave me the name Byron Fisher. That is the guy that ran the Storesroom back then and maybe he is still around. We will see. I told him that I was astounded to see that the Rangers had sold off all those Thompsons back then, so much history right out the door. He said they had put some Ex FBI guy in charge of DPS back then and he called in all of the full auto weapons because he didn't want anyone to have them. Those along with a lot of other ordnance. He said the lower ranks couldn't believe they were doing it. In any case he had to comply. He went on to tell me about a book that showed him standing beside his patrol car with all of his weaponry displayed (Thompson included) with Captain Burks. "Illustrated History of the Texas Rangers" is the book. I bought it yesterday but he is sending my a copy of the picture he had in his files.

 

Right now I am thinking my best shot is to contact each Company Major. There are 6 companies outside of headquarters. I have already gotten one of the old annual inventory list from Company "B". That is where I found # 4196 and # 1939. For what it is worth, I have a couple of documents showing machine guns moving thorough Petmecky's inventory in the July 1922 time frame. Pics attached.

 

1462 doc.jpg

1462 doc1.jpg

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I have been working hard on gathering up info on some of the Thompsons that I have in inventory that I think are related to the Texas Rangers. Gordon always told me that they were not Texas Ranger Guns but more likely Texas Highway Patrol Guns and wrote that in his book. I never could prove otherwise until just recently. In my quest for information I found out that there are actually two Texas Ranger Museums in Texas. One in Waco Texas, the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame and another in Fredericksburg Texas, Texas Rangers' Heritage Center. I had been dealing with the Waco operation mostly trying to gather up info on 5 weapons that were sold at a Department of Public Safety auction in May of 1984.

 

G.H also states that #1462 has a replacement barrel taken from Colt 1921A #4777 before it was destroyed. G.H. doesn't mention the WWII type frame grip on #1462. The P.D. case seems to be post 1930's manufacture. As the Texas Highway Patrol was not formed until 1929, and the Texas Department of Public Safety was not founded until 1935, not sure why G.H. would credit those agencies with buying/possessing/being consigned these Colt TSMGs back in 1922. The 1922 AOC letter to Colt Patent Fire Arms Mfg. Company certainly clears up the confusion. But what type of tax is being referred to in the letter that AOC wishes to be exempt from?

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The Firearms and ammunition excise tax (FAET) was enacted in 1919 under The Internal Revenue Code Chapter 32. I believe that the manufactures excise tax due on A Colt TSMG would have been 11 percent of Auto Ordnances Price collected on each sale. Government Entities were exempt from the tax, so Auto Ordnance could file a tax exemption request with Colt at the time of sale. Edited by inertord
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The Firearms and ammunition excise tax (FAET) was enacted in 1919 under The Internal Revenue Code Chapter 32. I believe that the manufactures excise tax due on A Colt TSMG would have been 11 percent of Auto Ordnances Price collected on each sale. Government Entities were exempt from the tax, so Auto Ordnance could file a tax exemption request with Colt at the time of sale.

 

Thank you for identifying the relevant tax. That a year after the last Colt TSMG came off the production line AOC would still correspond with Colt to inform them of every TSMG sale to a government entity rather than directly to the Internal Revenue Service, who was directly responsible for collecting the FAET, is interesting. As the Code includes manufacturers, producers, and importers, apparently IRS did not recognize AOC as any of those.

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It is an interesting situation in that Colt as the manufacturer, was responsible for collecting and submitting the manufactures excise tax (or tax exemption) on every Colt TSMG at the time of sale. Presumably this was required by Colt from 1921 until the last Colt TSMG was sold???
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It is an interesting situation in that Colt as the manufacturer, was responsible for collecting and submitting the manufactures excise tax (or tax exemption) on every Colt TSMG at the time of sale. Presumably this was required by Colt from 1921 until the last Colt TSMG was sold???

 

Nearly 20 years of sales of Colt TSMGs to government entities with Colt being responsible for recording those sales per FAET regs and when Colt Patent Fire Arms Mfg. Company is queried about any info on any Colt TSMG serial number their official position is check with Auto-Ordnance Corporation. Colt files may still contain documents that could determine original purchasers of many of the 15,000 TSMGs.

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I am friends with the Texas Ranger Assistant Chief who retired last year. If you need help contacting anyone please let me know. I have talked to him in the past about getting me a look at what the have in the back rooms not on display in Waco and he said it he could take care of it.

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Here is what I have for now and who I have contact with. I have good history on #5979, Captain Thomas R. Hickman's weapon. Some history on #1462, Texas Ranger Joe Davis' weapon. Don't know who had it before it came out of the property room, circa 1970 / 1980. It has seen some serious use and probably by someone significant, re: Hamer, Gonzaullas, Burks, or the like. Some history on #4196, Texas Ranger Ralph Wadsworth, Senior. He came into possession in about 1978 when he arrived at Company "B", Garland, Texas. It sure would be nice if someone could locate the "Blue" inventory cards that were kept in the stores room. They would tell all. Probably stuck in a file cabinet somewhere or may still be in the stores room, if it still exists. Hopefully they were not destroyed. I have nothing yet on #9760 or #S483903. Both were Texas Ranger weapons, but I can't pin them down to any specific Texas Ranger or Company as of yet. I am working with Major Grover Huff, Company "B", Bryon Johnson of the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco, Joe Davis of the Texas Ranger Heritage Center in Fredericksburg, Texas. What would be nice is if someone could have the Company Majors take a look around and see if they can come up with some of the old inventory lists. That is how I got the info on #4196. Also how info came to be on #10318, another Lone Wolfe Gonzaullas' weapon. Any help you can give would be most appreciated. BTW, I forgot to post the info and pics on #4196 ( I think ). Will do that next.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This topic reminded me of some correspondence I had with the Rock Island Auction Company a while back. I had gotten into an argument in a Facebook group with a guy who was alleging that there were Remington Model 8 rifles modified to fire full-automatic, and he showed a picture of a Model 8 with a long curved magazine and a TSMG vertical foregrip as proof. I had recognized the photo as an auction listing photo from Rock Island. So, I contacted them through their Facebook page, asking if they could provide a link to the auction in which the rifle was sold. The person with which I was communicating was extremely helpful, producing a link to the auction listing in no time. Long story short, the rifle is in fact semi-automatic, and the guy was wrong. In the process, I found out that the rifle was the property of the Texas Ranger discussed above, Manuel Trazazas "Lone Wolf" Gonzaullas.

 

It is a very interesting rifle due to the modifications made to it. The rifle is a Model 8 Police, fitted with a 15-round detachable magazine, made by the Peace Officer Equipment Company of St. Joseph, Missouri, and a beefier foregrip, also part of the modifications made by POE Co to convert the Model 8 to Police configuration. The modifications made by Gonzaullas (or by other(s) to his specifications; I don't have any information regarding that) include the TSMG foregrip as previously stated, a tang-mounted Lyman aperture rear sight, a side-mounted commercial M1907-type sling, and an enlarged bolt handle knob for surer grip when running the action.

 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/47/719/remington-arms-inc-8

 

Hope this little tangent is OK with everyone.

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Firearm,

 

Thanks for sharing all the detail on the Ranger guns. I find it especially interesting when info is available on the actual use of Thompsons (or at least carried in vehicles) as opposed to sitting for decades in an arms room.

 

On one hand, we are fortunate that so many Thompsons were carefully preserved by the owners. On the other hand I like to know who used them and under what circumstances, even if that means more wear and tear.

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  • 10 months later...

I finally got a chance to pull the buttstock off #1462 and disassemble it. Early on I thought this was a Colt Buttstock that had been sanded down some but now I am not so sure. Early Savage? It is marked "12641 under the butt plate and there is no "anchor mark". Then again maybe it was sanded off. Pistol grip is Savage. Has a small "S" stamped in the top. Forward grip looks like early Savage as well but then again, I am not an expert on Thompson wood. All of the wood is beautiful and glass smooth. The butt plate is not Colt. It is unmarked internally. The buttstock latch is also not Colt. It is stamped with a small "P" in a couple of places underneath. Can any of you wood guys give me your 2 cents? Also I have all of the necessary wood and parts to bring it back to Colt factory specs but I am debating on whether I should do so as this is the way it left the Texas Rangers. I am not so sure I want to change it back for historical reasons. What would you do? Pics attached.

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That is interesting.

First, 12641 is reverse of 1462 missing a (1).

Now look at the two "1"s on that stock...similar BUT not the same.

Makes me wonder what such possible coding wizardry goeth on here, or maybe my eyes are playing tricks ...anyone else see all that?

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firearm,

 

The font size on the numbered stamping on the butt plate appears to be the larger type used on the Colt/Remington made stocks but the the butt plate appears to be a common milled type used on the WWII production guns. The very early Savage guns would also have numbered butt plates, stocks and slide attachment numbers.. Based on the lack of a sling swivel on the butt stock, my guess would be that you have a Colt/Remington butt stock that has been sanded (losing the anchor mark), refinished, and the butt plate replaced for whatever reason. Maybe the other one was rusted? The front grip appears to be Colt/Remington, if there is no "S" stamped in the grip mount channel, but also exhibits signs of light sanding due to the soft edge of the horizontal edge along the top of the grip (see picture).

 

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I can't explain the Savage grip on the grip frame, but if the wood was refinished at some point, which it appears to have been, it obviously was replaced at that time.

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Nick told me off line about the suspect wood on NO 1462 and wanted my opinion on putting original Colt's wood on this former Texas Ranger Thompson. I told him that I would leave it alone but supply any missing Colt's wood to a future owner and let them make the decision. I stand behind that recommendation but with one caveat. Of course, I wanted to see what wood was on NO 1462. And I wanted to see if NO 1462 had been refinished since the wood was suspect. No, I cannot memorize the condition all of Nick's collection so it was not until this morning I had a chance to view my pictures of NO 1462. Thankfully, only the wood was refinished or changed. Given the honest Texas Ranger wear found on NO 1462 one can only imagine what the original Colt's grip looked like, why the anchor mark is missing from the butt stock, why the butt plate was replaced and why the Colt's fore grip was sanded. Remember, this was a duty gun, not a collectors item (as it is today). My caveat to Nick is I would try to find the most beat up Colt's wood possible for NO 1462. In other words, make the wood match the remaining finish. And include the refinished wood with NO 1462 should he ever sell it.

 

We are so fortunate on this Forum to have gijive or Chuck Schauer. He can spot Colt's wood a mile away. Me, I have to go slow and look at pictures. Shown below is how I determined the butt stock was Colt's. The picture collage is made up of pictures Chuck posted in the past that I saved and use for comparison purposes when questions arise. Pictures like below are one reason I wrote An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun. Providing pictures of all things Colt gives the new and advanced collectors a solid reference point when questions and expensive decisions arise.

 

Butt Plate collage.jpg

 

Note how the assembly number in the 4000 range Colt's is very similar to the assembly number on the butt stock on NO 1462. All except for the number 4, which is displayed in the 5000 range Colt's butt stock. I also agree with Chuck the fore grip is Colt's but it has been sanded.

 

I also want to thank Nick for making pictures of his fantastic collection available. I learn something every time Nick starts a new thread.

 

All good stuff!!!

 

 

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