Colt Super 38

[jim c 351]

Did the FBI ever officially adapt the Colt Super 38 or did the FBI just permit agents to purchase the guns privately.

During what time period was the Super used by FBI agents.

Anyone aware of any police depts. using these guns, before or after WW2.

I remember reading G Gordon Liddys book "WILL" where he mentions his FBI uncle packing a Super, but that's it for me.

Jim C

Edited August 1, 2015 by jim c 351

[OCM]

Frank Hamer carried a Colt 38 Super to the Bonnie & Clyde ambush. Larry Wack can answer the FBI side of things, I'll send him an email to check out your question on the forum here. I think the 357 took over a lot of the 38 Super's glory. I'll ask my retired cop pals too.

[darrylta]

I think the Colt 38 super was the FBI special issue gun in 1929. I remember seeing an FBI gun story years

back in the NRA's American Riflemen mag.

Soon after, I had the chance to buy a nice 1929 super and jumped on it:-)

Darryl

Edited August 4, 2015 by darrylta

[OCM]

At least in Indiana, they carried revolvers in the early years, a lot being the 357. My pal said the Sheriff dept didn't trust the semi-autos, later going to the Colt autos, depending on what the Sheriff wanted.

The outlaws knew better, the Colt autos, 45-38 Supers.

Jim , you might check out Larry's web page, do a search for the Colt 38 Super, bet that will answer that.

Another pal said he Dad carried a 38 Police positive in Marion County, Indiana, early years of the war, his own. Then in the early 60s a S&W Model 15 38 Special.

Edited August 1, 2015 by OCM

[jim c 351]

Sandy & Darryl,

Thanks for commenting.

Darryl,- beautiful Super. Bet your still making payments on it. Too bad the kids had to forgo College.

Sandy,- Didn't know you owned a beautiful prewar Super. Anyhow, went to Larry's web. Found a nice article by Kevin Williams. Very interesting but didn't answer all my questions.

I recently bought a 1948 Super 38. Unlike Darryl's Colt , mine has much wear and a little rust. In short it looks like a duty firearm for a law enforcement officer.

If a person is willing to pay $100.00 Colt will provide a letter saying who the gun was shipped to. Its a waste of money to learn a gun was shipped to Joe's hardware in Hickory Nuts Maine. But if the letter states the gun was shipped to the FBI , then its worth the money.

So who was buying Supers in 1948.

Jim C

PS did you guys know you can install a 9 M/M barrel on the Super and shoot cheap ammo.

Edited August 1, 2015 by jim c 351

[OCM]

Mine is a 1948 also. I wanted one in blue instead of my nickel ones. I had a 1929 about 4 years ago or so. If you go to the Wolf& Klar posting I did, you can see the Colt letter with my nickel 1908 380.

Larry was going to go thru his files see what he can drum up.

 

Glad to see you got a real pistol now, one the goes thru a car ! Love the 38 Super.

[darrylta]

I've always been partial to the 38 supers as well.

A couple interesting ones I have is a circa 1959 in the box and

a modern full size Ed Brown. It is in itself fairly rare since he only made them

for one year and in limited quantities. It's also my current open carry barbeque

gun.

 

Darryl

 

 

 

 

[historicalgmen]

Hi Gents:

 

If it's of any assistance, released FBI documents clearly reveal that the Colt Police Positive was the "handgun of choice" for the Bureau immediately following the Kansas City Massacre of June, 1933 and within months, each agent had one.

 

Documents I've examined for the Colt Super .38's are not overly clear however we do know this from those found, and some training documents:

 

1. Since Bureau records regarding Super .38s are lacking, we take another route. Colt records of shipments of the Super .38 to the Government reveal shipments to the "Justice Dept" et al as early as 1933 however it's unclear from this how many Supers went to the Bureau as opposed to Treasury and others. Our FBI docs do reveal Colt rep, Joe Lorch was the go-to guy for the Bureau anyhow, along with other agencies.

 

2. We know that Supers were "issued" during the 1934 period [and agents had to qualify with them]. We have one letter, as an example, to police officials showing handguns issued. The letter to the police officials may really need some explanation though.... I think some care should be taken in assuming each agent was literally "issued" both a Police Positive AND a Super .38. From other records it appears that a limited amount of Super 38s were issued to each field office as the early 30s progressed, and manpower increased also. Those interested and who could show proficiency would then request a Super .38 be "issued" to them by the SAC who was holding the limited inventory. Some personnel files I've seen of agents during that era clearly DO NOT show any Super .38s on their property cards during their careers; instead they only show the issuance of the Police Positive.

 

I've attached 2 documents providing some support for the above 1 and 2. Colt's records of shipments are shown in one document.

 

I'm also attaching Kevin Williams', a Colt expert, great article on the Super .38 that might be of assistance. Off hand I don't know how long the Super .38 stayed in inventory and utilized by the field since my own research only covers those 1930s years with regard to weapons obtained. Kevin's article may fill in some of what you're trying to resolve.

 

cheers

Larry Wack

FBI - Retired

 

 

 

 

colt super automatic.pdf

[OCM]

Impressive as usual, Darryl-

No one can top this one. You & I should of gone together and scored it. You have it for 4 months, me 8 months just cuz.

I would of given your left testicle to own this.

Moot point now.

Edited August 2, 2015 by OCM

[OCM]

Thanks Larry, as usual. Your research/web site on this stuff is amazing.

 

Sandy

[historicalgmen]

No problem; thanks

LW

[jim c 351]

Darryl,

You certainly have some nice Supers. One of these days I'll post some pics of my shooter grade Supers.

 

Larry,

Thanks for the info.

I read on your sight how the Colt Police Positive was evaluated against the 1911- 45 and the PPS was deemed the more effective firearm. They were using the High velocity 38/44 round. Today, I don't think anyone would recommend such a hot round in a PPS.

 

I copied Kevin Williams article. Very interesting.

 

As I mentioned above, I read G. Gordon Liddy's book "Will" back in the '70's and for some reason I seem to remember his uncle, an FBI agent as having a Super 38.

If my memory is correct the Uncle was visiting the Liddy family, and little Gordon, a pre teen , discovered the loaded Colt in his uncles case. He thought he'd share his find with the rest of the family, and waltzed out to the living room pointing the Colt at all present.

The uncle jumped to his feed and walked directly to the gun, thus shielding the family from a discharge. He disarmed young Gordon and went on with his visit.

Years later when Gordon became an FBI agent he was issued the uncle's badge, but not the Super.

At least that's how I remember it all these years later.

Thanks again.

Jim C

[historicalgmen]

For added info, I'm attaching another document of '34 reflecting the Super .38 being used at firearms training.

 

Not familiar with the Liddy story but he was known to be quite the story teller around. One thing that is true about Liddy is that he had a remarkable ability to duplicate Hoover's signature and had accessed the same "blue ink" used by Hoover. Liddy would make hand notes in the columns of the memos written by the HQ guys berating them etc. about the memo, subject matter etc. and send it back to them as if Hoover had done it himself. He'd let the HQ supervisor "squirm" for a while before admitting he wrote the notations.

 

larry

[darrylta]

Sandy,

How much did the JD's super go for? I've never been a story gun buyer, the pricing on these puppies

approach "silly left nut money" and are sometimes fake to boot. In this case, I may have entertained the idea since a

JD historian was involved.

Always buy the gun,,,not the story, as a general rule.

Darryl

[OCM]

Darryl-

This one was a lot more then the typical , " Dillinger Slept Here " story, I've seen a bunch of those thru the years and it's extremely bad these days.

This one had all the right historical stuff, correct #, Colt letter from Wolf & Klar, time frame.... on & on.

I don't know what the final number was at the hammer, but I was getting outbid almost instantly. I think with buyer premium, it was around $50,000.

JD had two guns on him that day, the nickel 38 Super from Wolf & Klar and a Colt 45 auto, probably from the same. These were picked up just before the arrest in Tucson. I have the stories from the arresting officer (s).

I've only seen a small handful of what I consider real outlaw guns, come on the private market. That's after about 45+ years as a outlaw historian.

I've wondered sometimes if some of the holes in the B&C death car were from a Hamer 38 Super. There are about 4 entrance holes over Bonnie's door and she did take one in the right side of her face. Time machine moment-

 

Larry, many thanks for this info. The 38 Super is a hell of a round. I'll probably be firing one of my 38 Supers this Thursday with your Sheriff friend and his Thompson of course.

 

 

Sandy

[OCM]

Don't think this is a Super, but a good shot of John Dillinger in 1934.

[MARK2112]

I think that was the depp gun

[OCM]

Mark-

You know something I don't ? PM me if you own the JD gun. Might trade you for a car-