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So, it was revealed at the SHOT show that Franklin Armory found a way from needing a tax stamp for a SBR. As I understand it, there is no twist in the rifling. Someone please correct me if I am wrong or can shed light on this matter. So does this mean someone can make Thompson barrels with straight rifling. While I totally understand this diminishes accuracy, but to circumvent the whole $200, paperwork, and ungodly wait times then who cares. Any opinion or knowledge on this new revelation is welcomed. Edited by halftrack
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Yes, in theory it could work on any firearm but probably best to see how this end run around the rules shakes out over time. If you do straight rifle a standard length Thompson barrel and install it on your semi, I would advise sending it to FTB (Firearms Tech Branch) for their inspection and hopefully approval. But, keep in mind that if they decide that it is still restricted and controlled under NFA regulations, you will not get it back because it is illegal for you to possess it as an individual. Usually an 07/II handles the FTB inspection for a variance or approval on an MG that is registered as a post-May sample so that if the desIgn is not approved the CII gets his registered gun back. Since SBRs are controlled under NFA the same approach is valid.

Relying on some other persons approval from ATF and assuming that it covers you is a very bad idea. Letters actually are individual specific applying only to the individual who requests a determination for their design and gets an approval. I understand that a lot of people assume that an approval for one individuals design includes anyone elses interpretation of the approved design, so they can go ahead and do what they want without a nod from ATF. Be careful.

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I worry as to what is coming next with all these people/companies pushing the letter of the law to its breaking point trying to find "loopholes"

I agree, I feel like as firearm enthusiasts we are shooting ourselves in the foot by trying to circumvent laws like this. My opinion is bump fire stocks fall into the same category, no it doesn’t make it a machine gun but to me it’s like an attorney getting someone off on a crime that they are guilty of committing based on some minor technicality

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I worry as to what is coming next with all these people/companies pushing the letter of the law to its breaking point trying to find "loopholes"

I will play devils advocate for a moment.

 

When people started the NFA trust thing people thought the same. However, that seemed to turn out pretty well. Is it not for these companies, would we not have what we have now?

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Wasn’t the purpose of the NFA Trust created because of some Chief Law Enforecement Officers were preventing people (or anyone in their district) who was legally eligible to own a legal NFA item from owning one? Which was a violation of the second amendment by preventing law abiding citizens the ownership of legal arms? So the trust circumvented that and allowed ownership of said legal items.
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Wasn’t the purpose of the NFA Trust created because of some Chief Law Enforecement Officers were preventing people (or anyone in their district) who was legally eligible to own a legal NFA item from owning one? Which was a violation of the second amendment by preventing law abiding citizens the ownership of legal arms? So the trust circumvented that and allowed ownership of said legal items.

I'm speaking in ignorance on the subject, but I'm not sure how much impact the chief law enforcement official actually has ... We once had a sheriff who would check "recommend to deny" on every handgun permit that passed his desk ... If the applicant passed the state background check and was a current resident of the state the state police would issue the applicant a permit. I think the sheriff did it for possible liability reasons ... A CYA thing.

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Theyre going to be huge with gunshow folks. Could not believe how many people swarmed around the guns at SHOT. All to avoid some paperwork and $200 to play NFA like.

 

I suspect it will catch up much like slidefire type stocks are being looked at closely. I personally dont believe finding loopholes is the way to go. Much like the oil can cleaning devices you see at the show.

 

$200 wont even buy your lawyer lunch.

 

Ron

Edited by ron_brock
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To my knowledge, you can't convert a pistol/rifle/shotgun into a "firearm" as the Reformation is; it would have to be built that way from the factory. So someone (most likely Kahr, unfortunately) could possibly make similar barrels. Depending on how much they would mark up such a firearm, it would likely be cheaper to get the stamp anyway.

 

I still can't believe they got away with that binary firing system where the pull and release of the trigger is considered two separate actions. I fear this poking of holes in the wording is just going to make the ATF say "You're taking this much too literally...so no more binary trigger, no more AR pistols, etc., etc." because they are tired of dealing with the semantics of this stuff.

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But isn't an SBR defined as a rifle with a barrel less than 16" in length from the muzzle to the breech ? I don't see how the presence of "straight" rifling means anything as opposed to barrel length.
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But isn't an SBR defined as a rifle with a barrel less than 16" in length from the muzzle to the breech ? I don't see how the presence of "straight" rifling means anything as opposed to barrel length.

Well, the definition of the word rifle is:

 

ri·fle1
ˈrīfəl/
noun
  1. 1.
    a gun, especially one fired from shoulder level, having a long spirally grooved barrel intended to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance.
    synonyms: firearm, gun, shotgun, 30-30;
    trademarkWinchester
    "he refused to register the rifle"
verb
  1. 1.
    make spiral grooves in (a gun or its barrel or bore) to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance.
    "a line of replacement rifled barrels"

 

So, if the gun doesn't have a rifled barrel, then I guess there's an argument that it isn't technically a rifle. To me, you'd be making a Thompson an inaccurate musket.

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SBRs and SBSs cannot exist without the combination of the receiver and the short barrel. A receiver without a short barrel cannot be registered as an SBR, for instance. The act of combining the short barrel and the receiver creates the SB rifle or shotgun. Neither the barrel or the receiver constitutes an SB weapon. So, putting a short rifled barrel or a short shotgun barrel on a semi receiver moves the weapon across the line into the category of an SB weapon requiring registration due to the definitions of a rifle or shotgun. Neither of these parts requires compliance with the rule that they have to be in a particular configuration from the factory as is the case of a rifle receiver assembled as a pistol, which must never have had a stock assembled to it at any time.

In my view, the combination of a semi rifle receiver and a straight rifled barrel is the same as creating an SB weapon. When the receiver is assembled with a straight rifled barrel, the combination crosses into the category of a firearm, not an SBR, due to the definition of a rifle. No twist to the rifling, there is no rifle, but only a firearm. No registration required.

A smooth bore unregistered Auto Burgler can be removed from the control of NFA as a AOW requiring registration by inscribing extremely light rifling into the bore, with a twist, and the weapon crosses into the category of a Title I pistol. No registration required. This bit of manipulation of the technical definition for a weapon to fit into one catagory or another is used to allow private possession of unregistered Auto Burglers that otherwise would have to go through some hoops to become eligible for legal registration as an AOW. Cost of transfer of an AOW is only $5 but many people resist the idea of the being listed in the ATF registry and other reasons.

FWIW

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SBRs and SBSs cannot exist without the combination of the receiver and the short barrel. A receiver without a short barrel cannot be registered as an SBR, for instance. The act of combining the short barrel and the receiver creates the SB rifle or shotgun. Neither the barrel or the receiver constitutes an SB weapon. So, putting a short rifled barrel or a short shotgun barrel on a semi receiver moves the weapon across the line into the category of an SB weapon requiring registration due to the definitions of a rifle or shotgun. Neither of these parts requires compliance with the rule that they have to be in a particular configuration from the factory as is the case of a rifle receiver assembled as a pistol, which must never have had a stock assembled to it at any time.

In my view, the combination of a semi rifle receiver and a straight rifled barrel is the same as creating an SB weapon. When the receiver is assembled with a straight rifled barrel, the combination crosses into the category of a firearm, not an SBR, due to the definition of a rifle. No twist to the rifling, there is no rifle, but only a firearm. No registration required.

A smooth bore unregistered Auto Burgler can be removed from the control of NFA as a AOW requiring registration by inscribing extremely light rifling into the bore, with a twist, and the weapon crosses into the category of a Title I pistol. No registration required. This bit of manipulation of the technical definition for a weapon to fit into one catagory or another is used to allow private possession of unregistered Auto Burglers that otherwise would have to go through some hoops to become eligible for legal registration as an AOW. Cost of transfer of an AOW is only $5 but many people resist the idea of the being listed in the ATF registry and other reasons.

FWIW

Thank you Black River for some clarity on the issue!

 

While some may call it a gimmick and loophole, I think its innovations like this that help keep some of our rights from eroding.

 

Its funny that the word gimmick was used. I read many times over how the blish lock was a gimmick on this forum but yet it doesnt stop people/collectors forking out $40,000 for that so called gimmick.

 

Just food for thought, not meant to ruffle feathers.

Edited by halftrack
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> I love firearms and have many but don't want to live in a country where thousands and thousands are being killed yearly by assault rifles......<

 

If I recall, the most recent statistics from the FBI, 2016, indicate that for that year 300 deaths were attributed to rifles used. There was no breakdown of the types, activity of shooter or decedent, etc, a nd no doubt it included some deaths from AR and AK style rifles. Hardly thousands and thousands. None of these rifles were assault rifles as they were all semi|autos of many different style.

Interesting that you dismiss the 2nd Amendment as crap. Do the rest of the Bill or Rights fall into that catagory for you? You want more CONTROL of people living under our exceptional experiment in democracy and freedom, but who gets to be in CONTROL? You? You are not alone in your desire that more CONTROL be enforced upon the population of our country based on a wide variety of good intentions, but CONTROL means someone has the power to decide who is controlled and who is exempt and what are the rules and the ONLY way that such power can be enforced is by guns. Apparently you have forgotten that US citizens have an agree with our government called the Comstitution and within that document is the express agreement between the citizens and the government that our natural rights belong solely to us, period. They are non-negotiable, unabridged, unalienable. The most common story handed down in history, written and oral, is the simple tale of oppression by those with weapons of those without, whether it be a government or the rapist around the corner waiting for a vulnerable woman. This is irrefutable. You are simply wrong.

Edited by Black River Militaria CII
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Ok, guys, let it go, back to the original topic. Don't let one comment cause an otherwise good discussion to go off the rails. Thanks

 

I concur...I can get enough political opinions on Facebook; I come here for discussion of the weaponry, not the ideological differences of owners. ;)

 

Rob

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Yeah, I hear what you're saying but sometimes we ( gun owners) are our own worst enemies. A house divided cannot stand . I stay off of social media because of the idiocy that's on those venues. I'll try to stay on topic.

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well, me being an engineer.............. (just kidding)

 

Didn't they try this before on Shotguns and rifled slugs? Shot gun barrels could not be shorter the 18 ". So they made a shotgun that could only take a certain rifled slug and shorten the barrel to 16.5 "? I might be mistaken but there was something tried back in the 70's

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