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In the years between 1934 and 1968....


yohuang
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This "historical" question is in my mind, but I don't know the answer.

 

Say, after 1934 GCA, MGs were required to be registered to be legal. Was the registration wide open for many years after 1934, or just a fixed few months (or years?) after 1934? Could owners of that time register as many MGs as he/she willing to pay $200 per gun, or there was a cap they could register per head count?

 

I was born too late to know those. Could you help to answer? Thanks!

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People could register previously unregistered items with a F1. Old versions included a line for date the firearm was acquired. No tax as congress taxed building and transfer, not possession. With passage of the GCA, that option ceased to exist except for government agencies. Until April 1974, a government agency could register with a F10 and the firearms could enter commerce.

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It was also possible to deal with foreign sellers and have a MG delivered from overseas. I have a series of letters between the Dutch factory and a Guy in Detroit describing the order and delivery of an AR10 MG in 1959. The Detroit guy wrote a check to Armalite USA but dealt directly with the factory.

 

(but he did have to pay the tax)

Edited by HHollow
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  • 2 weeks later...

What a different time.

 

I may have read this wrong in the comments above, but the guns could be imported and registered for free? And only were $200 taxed if they transferred them to someone on a form 4 or manufactured them on a form 1? Importing them was NFA stamp tax free?

 

If so thats amazing!

Edited by michaelkih
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  • 2 weeks later...

 

 

was it $200 in 1934?

Yes the 200 dollar tax has never been increased.

Realize that at the time, a new Ford cost under $500, etc.

Inflation adjusted from 1934, the $200 tax would be $3757 today.

SHHhhh!!!

 

Yes, this is part of what the NFA was designed to effect, a virtual prohibition through both extreme taxation as well as the CLEO sign off

This was the middle of the Great Depression era as well. $200 would literally buy a home with a few acres of land in many rural areas

 

There is another wrinkle in all this as well not often considered

Why was a Corporate exemption to the CLEO sign off created in the 1st place ?

 

It's actually pretty simple

When Moganthau drafted up the NFA in many jurisdictions the Chief Law Enforcement Officer was often the County Sheriff

Yes a locally elected official

The problem was many Sheriffs were on the side of the public and the thought was they may not support Corporations arming up private Goon squads of Strike Busters to go after Coal Miners, etc.

Corps still had to pay that $200 Excise Tax but the concept of maintaining "control" of a corporately possessed MG was pretty fast and loose back then.

 

Another important nuance in all this is under the original Morganthau plan all Handguns would have went under the NFA as well

I have never been very clear on what the transfer tax would have been however I suspect the intent was likely to apply a $200 excise duty on them just like we have on SBRs

The deal there was Morganthau wanted strict regulation of all concealable firearms. In Congressional hearings no less than FDRs AG testified that he felt such an action would likely result in civil insurrection and as a result Congress stripped out the Handgun regulation angle however as a matter of simple oversight forgot to modify the SBR definition to preclude handguns made from rifles which was once a fairly common home project.

 

This is something to carefully consider

In 1935 America was awash in Handguns

We were still a mostly rural nation, you could buy el cheapo Suicide Specials mail order, Heck Grit newspaper carriers could win one by selling new subscriptions, I'm talking little kids.

As I pointed out the other day in another thread, the NFA incorporated no antique exemption either.

Remember this was 1935 and folks still were using cap & ball revolvers. Hell the US Army was still issuing them as late as the early 1900s during the Insurection in the Philippines. A whole mess of unissued Rodgers & Spencer cap & ball .44s ended up shipped to the PI after the Army .38 Colts proved less than effective against the natives.

By 1920 you could buy surplus cap and ball revolvers from Bannermans for a couple bucks, sometimes even less.

 

Up here Homesteading started back just before 1920, pretty late. by the Depression families were abandoning land claims

interesting bit to this sidebar was the number of cap and ball revolvers that were left behind at the homesteads when the families packed up and left.

I found two myself, a 49' .31 Colt and a .44 Starr back in the 70s

Know of a number of others

point is they held almost no value in the 30s but would have been every bit as regulated under the original NFA as a brand spanky new 1911 or Parabellum

The AG back then was no fool, he knew that was seriously a bridge way too far.

 

Now AOWs were a different type of fruit

While concealable they tended to be mostly small bore single shot shot pistols for hunting

most commonly the H&R Handy Gun or Stevens Auto Shot. That's why the Transfer taxation was pretty nominal

Not that there were not some very limited runs of extreme AOWs. Remington's custom shop put out a small number of factory M17 20 gauge pumper pistols for example but they are seriously ​RARE.

​Anyways, that's why AOWs have such a nominal transfer rate. That classification was mostly directed at .410 hunting pistols and extremely few were registered during the 35' Amnesty. Not even the many in the 68' Amnesty. This is why you somewhat regularly can run across Handy Gun bits on GunBroker, EBAY and elsewhere these days

it's a basic indicator of the level of non compliance with the 35' edicts

 

Another cute one is MG08s and MG08/15s

Post WWI we ended up with just thousands of Maxims as part of our share in post war reparations.

Well the Army played with .30-06 conversions but eventually decided to stay Browning

So back in the 20s our War Department started selling them off to the general public

Grandad used to talk about the local Banker in his town that bought one for his 12 year old son

Came with sealed cases of belted ammo

Dad and his son used to rip off a few belts at the 4th of July picnic

this was 1920s rural North Dakota, an 08/15 gun

 

This is why Maxims are somewhat common in America & exactly why they continue to crop up in barns and basements unregistered

Colt Thompsons and BARs were seriously spendy in the 20s, like a couple hundred bucks a unit

A War Department surplus Maxim ?

Well under fifty bones with cases of fresh German ammo FOB your depot via rail freight.

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was it $200 in 1934?

Yes the 200 dollar tax has never been increased.

Realize that at the time, a new Ford cost under $500, etc.

Inflation adjusted from 1934, the $200 tax would be $3757 today.

SHHhhh!!!

 

Yes, this is part of what the NFA was designed to effect, a virtual prohibition through both extreme taxation as well as the CLEO sign off

This was the middle of the Great Depression era as well. $200 would literally buy a home with a few acres of land in many rural areas

 

There is another wrinkle in all this as well not often considered

Why was a Corporate exemption to the CLEO sign off created in the 1st place ?

 

It's actually pretty simple

When Moganthau drafted up the NFA in many jurisdictions the Chief Law Enforcement Officer was often the County Sheriff

Yes a locally elected official

The problem was many Sheriffs were on the side of the public and the thought was they may not support Corporations arming up private Goon squads of Strike Busters to go after Coal Miners, etc.

Corps still had to pay that $200 Excise Tax but the concept of maintaining "control" of a corporately possessed MG was pretty fast and loose back then.

 

Another important nuance in all this is under the original Morganthau plan all Handguns would have went under the NFA as well

I have never been very clear on what the transfer tax would have been however I suspect the intent was likely to apply a $200 excise duty on them just like we have on SBRs

The deal there was Morganthau wanted strict regulation of all concealable firearms. In Congressional hearings no less than FDRs AG testified that he felt such an action would likely result in civil insurrection and as a result Congress stripped out the Handgun regulation angle however as a matter of simple oversight forgot to modify the SBR definition to preclude handguns made from rifles which was once a fairly common home project.

 

This is something to carefully consider

In 1935 America was awash in Handguns

We were still a mostly rural nation, you could buy el cheapo Suicide Specials mail order, Heck Grit newspaper carriers could win one by selling new subscriptions, I'm talking little kids.

As I pointed out the other day in another thread, the NFA incorporated no antique exemption either.

Remember this was 1935 and folks still were using cap & ball revolvers. Hell the US Army was still issuing them as late as the early 1900s during the Insurection in the Philippines. A whole mess of unissued Rodgers & Spencer cap & ball .44s ended up shipped to the PI after the Army .38 Colts proved less than effective against the natives.

By 1920 you could buy surplus cap and ball revolvers from Bannermans for a couple bucks, sometimes even less.

 

Up here Homesteading started back just before 1920, pretty late. by the Depression families were abandoning land claims

interesting bit to this sidebar was the number of cap and ball revolvers that were left behind at the homesteads when the families packed up and left.

I found two myself, a 49' .31 Colt and a .44 Starr back in the 70s

Know of a number of others

point is they held almost no value in the 30s but would have been every bit as regulated under the original NFA as a brand spanky new 1911 or Parabellum

The AG back then was no fool, he knew that was seriously a bridge way too far.

 

Now AOWs were a different type of fruit

While concealable they tended to be mostly small bore single shot shot pistols for hunting

most commonly the H&R Handy Gun or Stevens Auto Shot. That's why the Transfer taxation was pretty nominal

Not that there were not some very limited runs of extreme AOWs. Remington's custom shop put out a small number of factory M17 20 gauge pumper pistols for example but they are seriously ​RARE.

​Anyways, that's why AOWs have such a nominal transfer rate. That classification was mostly directed at .410 hunting pistols and extremely few were registered during the 35' Amnesty. Not even the many in the 68' Amnesty. This is why you somewhat regularly can run across Handy Gun bits on GunBroker, EBAY and elsewhere these days

it's a basic indicator of the level of non compliance with the 35' edicts

 

Another cute one is MG08s and MG08/15s

Post WWI we ended up with just thousands of Maxims as part of our share in post war reparations.

Well the Army played with .30-06 conversions but eventually decided to stay Browning

So back in the 20s our War Department started selling them off to the general public

Grandad used to talk about the local Banker in his town that bought one for his 12 year old son

Came with sealed cases of belted ammo

Dad and his son used to rip off a few belts at the 4th of July picnic

this was 1920s rural North Dakota, an 08/15 gun

 

This is why Maxims are somewhat common in America & exactly why they continue to crop up in barns and basements unregistered

Colt Thompsons and BARs were seriously spendy in the 20s, like a couple hundred bucks a unit

A War Department surplus Maxim ?

Well under fifty bones with cases of fresh German ammo FOB your depot via rail freight.

Thank you so much for all of this information.

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was it $200 in 1934?

Yes the 200 dollar tax has never been increased.

Realize that at the time, a new Ford cost under $500, etc.

Inflation adjusted from 1934, the $200 tax would be $3757 today.

SHHhhh!!!

 

Yes, this is part of what the NFA was designed to effect, a virtual prohibition through both extreme taxation as well as the CLEO sign off

This was the middle of the Great Depression era as well. $200 would literally buy a home with a few acres of land in many rural areas

 

There is another wrinkle in all this as well not often considered

Why was a Corporate exemption to the CLEO sign off created in the 1st place ?

 

It's actually pretty simple

When Moganthau drafted up the NFA in many jurisdictions the Chief Law Enforcement Officer was often the County Sheriff

Yes a locally elected official

The problem was many Sheriffs were on the side of the public and the thought was they may not support Corporations arming up private Goon squads of Strike Busters to go after Coal Miners, etc.

Corps still had to pay that $200 Excise Tax but the concept of maintaining "control" of a corporately possessed MG was pretty fast and loose back then.

 

Another important nuance in all this is under the original Morganthau plan all Handguns would have went under the NFA as well

I have never been very clear on what the transfer tax would have been however I suspect the intent was likely to apply a $200 excise duty on them just like we have on SBRs

The deal there was Morganthau wanted strict regulation of all concealable firearms. In Congressional hearings no less than FDRs AG testified that he felt such an action would likely result in civil insurrection and as a result Congress stripped out the Handgun regulation angle however as a matter of simple oversight forgot to modify the SBR definition to preclude handguns made from rifles which was once a fairly common home project.

 

This is something to carefully consider

In 1935 America was awash in Handguns

We were still a mostly rural nation, you could buy el cheapo Suicide Specials mail order, Heck Grit newspaper carriers could win one by selling new subscriptions, I'm talking little kids.

As I pointed out the other day in another thread, the NFA incorporated no antique exemption either.

Remember this was 1935 and folks still were using cap & ball revolvers. Hell the US Army was still issuing them as late as the early 1900s during the Insurection in the Philippines. A whole mess of unissued Rodgers & Spencer cap & ball .44s ended up shipped to the PI after the Army .38 Colts proved less than effective against the natives.

By 1920 you could buy surplus cap and ball revolvers from Bannermans for a couple bucks, sometimes even less.

 

Up here Homesteading started back just before 1920, pretty late. by the Depression families were abandoning land claims

interesting bit to this sidebar was the number of cap and ball revolvers that were left behind at the homesteads when the families packed up and left.

I found two myself, a 49' .31 Colt and a .44 Starr back in the 70s

Know of a number of others

point is they held almost no value in the 30s but would have been every bit as regulated under the original NFA as a brand spanky new 1911 or Parabellum

The AG back then was no fool, he knew that was seriously a bridge way too far.

 

Now AOWs were a different type of fruit

While concealable they tended to be mostly small bore single shot shot pistols for hunting

most commonly the H&R Handy Gun or Stevens Auto Shot. That's why the Transfer taxation was pretty nominal

Not that there were not some very limited runs of extreme AOWs. Remington's custom shop put out a small number of factory M17 20 gauge pumper pistols for example but they are seriously ​RARE.

​Anyways, that's why AOWs have such a nominal transfer rate. That classification was mostly directed at .410 hunting pistols and extremely few were registered during the 35' Amnesty. Not even the many in the 68' Amnesty. This is why you somewhat regularly can run across Handy Gun bits on GunBroker, EBAY and elsewhere these days

it's a basic indicator of the level of non compliance with the 35' edicts

 

Another cute one is MG08s and MG08/15s

Post WWI we ended up with just thousands of Maxims as part of our share in post war reparations.

Well the Army played with .30-06 conversions but eventually decided to stay Browning

So back in the 20s our War Department started selling them off to the general public

Grandad used to talk about the local Banker in his town that bought one for his 12 year old son

Came with sealed cases of belted ammo

Dad and his son used to rip off a few belts at the 4th of July picnic

this was 1920s rural North Dakota, an 08/15 gun

 

This is why Maxims are somewhat common in America & exactly why they continue to crop up in barns and basements unregistered

Colt Thompsons and BARs were seriously spendy in the 20s, like a couple hundred bucks a unit

A War Department surplus Maxim ?

Well under fifty bones with cases of fresh German ammo FOB your depot via rail freight.

Thank you so much for all of this information.

 

No problema' love to share particularly regarding the historical backdrop to all this

It's something that most folks simply don't understand very well

 

The Maxim situation was pretty crazy in the 20s, people are generally unaware the War Department once sold belt fed machineguns cash and carry to the public

Back then, they didn't appreciate any real difference between that and a .30-40 Krag

I have heard but have no proof that a fair number of Colt 1895s were as well surplused by the War Department and were sold through Bannermans

 

I forgot to mention other AOWs

The Ithica Auto Burglars, the Crescents which were knock offs of the A/B

Earliest were the small run of 20 gauge rolling block shot pistols put out by the Remington Custom Shop in the 1890s

and of course the Marbles line of Game Getters

 

Guys tend to focus just on BARs and Thompsons when it comes to pre NFA era things

Understand, quite a few things were brought back after the close of the Great War

My Grandad brought a 1918 German subgun home. Traded it for a Winchester in the 20s

Nope not many came Stateside but a few certainly did and nobody batted an eyelash over it either

 

Quite a few Artillery P08s made it Stateside complete with matching SN'd stock and the snail

about none were ever registered in either Amnesty event

what's interesting now though since deregulation those intact matching rigs are creeping out of the woodwork for MAJOR Money.

 

It goes back to my comments regarding so-called bicycle rifles

Great example are the cool little Quackenbush guns with the sliding stock

Those were non existant up through the 70s as they were most all if not all unregistered NFA

Once the bureau removed them from any regulation they started coming out of closets.

 

To be clear I don't want this taken as any support for being in violation of any Code

my point is that as a broad and basic rule America has never been all that compliant particularly back in the historical era when the NFA was enacted.

 

To get your head around the NFA you have to start looking at the Depression era labor strife

It wasn't so much created to corral Automobile Bandits as it was directed at Unionization, disarming workers

Movements like the Bonus Army who occupied DC scared the bejesus out of Washington elites, something had to be done.

Same with Miners, Iron Workers, etc

Understand we are talking about mostly rural folks many of whom had Combat experience

 

There had already been some real bad incidents like the Battle of Blair Mountain well prior to the Bonus March on DC

much of the impact of all this stays ignored

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More good information. Thank you!

 

The Bonus Army debacle was very fresh in the minds of DC

Started up in the spring of 1932, all we have is very rough estimates but it was well over 40 thousand which included not only Vets but their Wives and children

Hoover finally directed the War Department to evict them from the Capitol.

MacArthur directed this, Patton led the Cavalry and Ike wrote the report condoning it all as a just action

Tanks were deployed, folks were gassed with Adamsite

Some claim there were a few hundred fatalities mass graved in the aftermath.

 

This was the principle reason FDR won in a landslide in 1933 and why a National Firearms act was early core policy of his new administration along with a roll back of Prohibition.which was slammed through immediately in 33'

Part of the deal in that had to do with Beer

Up here prior to 1919 my little town had three small breweries. The Wheat, Barley and Hops were grown locally

When Prohibition was enacted many farmers were hit hard. That's why they packed up and abandoned their farmsteads in the 20s

That of course trickled down to local business

Big part of why so many communities in the upper Midwest imploded in the mid 20s

 

The repeal was largely an economic move but by 1933 the damage was long done

The Bars were gone, the Breweries mostly gutted and the all important farmers had left to join bread lines in Cities, same with the folks who made the Beer. It really sort of had became lost knowledge by 33'

Beer making stayed that way until rather recently too becoming a pale mass produced version of the pre prohibition beverage.

 

Anyways these are all components of what led to a great many changes in American society during the dirty 30s

The Gangster angle is a romantic thing but the actual fear was just ordinary folks rising up

 

Understand this was the same era that laws begin changing and what one could legally use to hunt Deer

.25-20WCF used to be a very popular Deer round out East

Back up into the 30s .22RF was dead common as a Deer rifle in the rural Midwest

Deal was wealthy types mostly out East wanted plain folks out of the forests

Easy way to do this was to force people to by new rifles by obsoleting what they had been using for years

The national firearms industry loved this and backed it but heck how many could afford a new gun with expensive ammo by the mid 20s ?

Now some did buy Krags and such through the NRA but even that wasn't widespread among subsistence farmers and that is exactly what the majority were back then,

 

Same situation with the old West

extremely few folks carried SAA Colts, big Smiths, etc

Same with Winchesters, etc.

Sharps were well nearly unknown on the upper Great Plains

 

To get one's head around that we have to understand the monthly a Montana Cowboy made in the 1890s

wasn't much

junior hands might get a ten spot a month, seasoned Men twenty at best usually with a foreman at fifty if very lucky.

Colts were well over Twenty

A Sharps was close to fifty for a base model

 

Of course ole' Clem still had to pay for other things

Girls were twenty five cents to a dollar

Booze wasn't free either

even a hot bath was money

Colts and Winchesters just were not in the financial wheelhouse for many living on the frontier and that was even more true for homesteaders

 

Anyways I encourage folks to examine the historical timelines on the NFA & GCA then consider what else was going on in the backdrop recently at the time.

My position is the main original focus of the NFA was concealable firearms. Congress ended up stripping handguns out from it's regulation

Oh and the suppressor regulation ?

That was mostly the result of the same elites who promoted new hunting regulation over their fears that some ordinary Joe might have a Maxim on his .22 shooting "his" Deer on public lands

they simply had otherwise never been a criminal problem.

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