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New - Colt Thompson in French Service


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That's going to be a great shooter! It does look like an MP40 sling. Get those Colt parts out of that receiver before you shoot it. They are damn near impossible to replace if broken.

Thanks for the welcome guys.

 

So you replace the original internals with replicas? Never thought about that. I did a quick google search and didn’t really find much on where to get internals you guys must have a go to place.

 

Wow if this is a French surviver that would be incredible!! I can’t even imagine the places it would have been. How would I go about finding the SN numbers that where sent to France, and is that even possible?!?! Looking at this forum others have mentioned a book that lists all the SN, would that have that information.

 

Thanks again for the welcome

Hi and welcome to the Thompson Board,

 

Yes, your gun was shipped to France before the US entered the war. The rear sling swivel is the common sling swivel that the French used on their guns. Other members will chime in when they see the pictures of your gun. The sling has a particular name and was used on French military arms during WWI. In fact, your gun may have been seized by the Germans when France fell and was pressed into use by German troops or maybe ended up in the French resistance. Either way, your gun is very rare and historic. Few, if any, made it through WWII and were brought back as war trophies. Your gun will be of great interest to the Colt collectors on the Board and they will respond when they find the thread.

 

In the meantime, I will check Gordon Herigstad's Colt Thompson serial number book and see what else I can find out for you.

 

*** I didn't read all of the previous posts before I responded. I see that TSMG28 did respond to your post already. He is one of the members I was hoping that would respond and confirm the sling arrangement on your gun as being of French origin.

Edited by gijive
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Slightly Twisted,

As stated by gijive, above, you have a very collectible Colt's Thompson. There is little doubt you have one of the 3000 Colt's purchased and shipped to the French government before it surrendered to Germany during World War II. David Albert, the owner of this Forum, wrote the story about the French Colt's in The Ultimate Thompson Book (TUTB). The serial numbers of the 3000 Colt's sold to the French are not known. Thompson guns were probably packed 10 to a case and the total number of cases is most likely all that would exist on any shipping documents, if found. No serial numbers have ever surfaced from the French military. That said, it is believed the great majority of these Colt's were Model of 1921s without compensators, just like NO 10374. From what I have seen from the few French Colt's that appeared to have survived is the serial numbers are usually in the 10,000 to 14,000 serial number range. Do not alter anything on your Colt's, especially the Berthier rifle sling swivels that have been installed by the French military.

 

The below information is from the previous thread Arthur F. posted, above.

 

The exact disposition of the largest order of Colt Thompson guns will probably never be known. However, it is known the 3000 guns were delivered to France prior to their surrender and enough remained in French service by the Vichy government to warrant the creation and issuance of French manuals or handbooks dated as early as 1941 (and very collectible). Unfortunately, many believe these Colt's were diverted to Great Britain; not true. It was 1150 Thompson guns from the second French order that were diverted to Britain. The second French order or contract was never completed by Auto-Ordnance. The guns set aside for the French were of early Savage manufacture.

 

I do reference the French order in my book, Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story, but Albert's story in the TUTB is much more complete.

 

You live very close to the yearly meetings of the two Thompson organizations, The American Thompson Association (TATA) and the Thompson Collectors Association (TCA). Both organizations have Shows & Shoots in Ohio each year. Unfortunately, you missed this years events but please join one or both organizations and prepare for next year. In addition, TATA will be doing a Thompson display at the 2019 NRA Convention in Indianapolis. This would be a great time to meet some TATA members.

 

I do hope you join and attend a Show & Shoot. I would really like to examine NO 10374. If your live close to the Cincinnati area, I will gladly take some professional pictures of it for you.

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When they were shipped to France in 1940 there were no slings or attachments for them so this mod was done over there. The Germans gave them to the Vichy forces so the MP40 sling was probably best suited for the job. Its an amazing piece of history congrats Im jealous!! My father brought back a lousy 1914 Mauser pistol that doesnt work right lol.
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The article that TD mentions from TUTB was originally published in Small Arms Review (https://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1599). The author, David Albert, is the owner of this board.

 

The French added the swivels to the Colt's Thompsons once they arrived in France. Most of the buttstock swivels were the Lebel swivel that the French originally used on their late 19th century rifles. The Berthier swivel was added to the vertical foregrip. The Berthier swivels both swivel and pivot. Documentation exists that indicates that the Berthier swivels were also sometimes used on the buttstock in the same location as the Lebel swivel, but I have not observed any examples of that. Some of the French-modified buttstock also had the reinforcing screws added below the buttstock slide.

 

We would love to have you join the TATA and TCA organizations and attend our shows next year. I guarantee the membership of both organizations would love to see your gun. Document as much of its history as possible. It is truly a rare gem, especially as a transferable Thompson.

 

Don't hesitate to ask whatever questions you have. There is a wealth of knowledge and experience on this board.

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What an awesome Colt Thompson!

 

I believe I added some information in The Ultimate Thompson Book (TUTB) chapter that was not included in the original Small Arms Review article. At least, that's the way I remember it. I'm away from both resources at the moment, or I'd check. Tom and Roger have both also added to the research of these "Colt Thompsons in French Service."

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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If you plan on firing the gun, in addition to swapping out the parts in the trigger frame and the actuator, bolt, and recoil sub-assembly in the receiver, with some reservation, I suggest that you consider having the barrel/front sight professionally swapped with newly made replacements. Of course, the new barrel/front sight will not match your receiver and frame unless you "age/antique" them. While the barrel/front sight replacement parts and process aren't cheap, the original barrel is really expensive to replace if it gets bulged or burst during firing.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

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Slightly Twisted welcome to the Forum! Amazing piece of history..always great to see how much help there is here!..hopefully you can pick up some new internals to fire your new baby (should you do so), and I'm gonna pick up my lower jaw from the floor due to another great story on here LOL.

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Wow, Im blown away just thinking of the possible of where this gun has been. I cant tell you how amazed Im, I knew it was a rare transferable gun but wow.

 

Im going to reread this a few time to make sure I fully understand all the info. I cant thank you guys enough for the information. Because so much has to do with the sling hinges here are a few better pics.

 

Ill look into the membership and will definitely be joining!

post-261840-0-56639600-1539105450_thumb.jpeg

post-261840-0-37809300-1539105463_thumb.jpeg

post-261840-0-85263400-1539105478_thumb.jpeg

Edited by Slightly Twisted
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I too will echo others comments and thanks on your sharing the family Thompson and photos and I too wish the gun to talk. If you happen to recall any of your Grandfather’s service and/or stories please post them as well since they are part of this guns “story”. (branch of military, dates of service, unit, what his job was, etc)

 

I recently joined The American Thompson Association and thanks to efforts on Tracie Hill’s part, my wife and I were able to attend this years meeting and shoot. (THANK YOU Tracie and Donna!) I highly recommend joining! Not only were we able to meet the likes of Tracie and his wife, but David Albert, Tom Davis (all of whom have shared their knowledge about your Thompson) and many others. They were all very patient, gracious and generous with both their time and knowledge about my gun (early M1 Savage) and I came away with not only new friends, but a higher degree of knowledge and confidence in maintaining and shooting my gun.

 

Your gun is special and rare on many levels (Colt, French purchase, WWII service and return to USA unchanged) not to mention you know the guns story from your Grandfather. If you plan on shooting it, please have one of the many highly knowledgeable individuals who have volunteered their expertise to help determine its functionality and change out the rare original parts before doing so...I would also take Tom up on his offer to professionally photograph your gun. What a great article it would make in “Small Arms Review”!

 

I look forward to learning more about this unique piece of history!

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You might go in to edit the title from "New' to something that gives this thread the recognition it deserves.."Colt Thompsons in French Service." or something like that. I nearly skipped it but then thought.."hmm maybe something interesting.." If you can't do it maybe Dave can, would be a shame for all this to disappear in the threads under 'New". Quite a fantastic bit of history, I wouldn't change a thing, or put a barrel wrench on it at all. It represents too much just as it is. You should be on that show "Strange Inheritance" for the historical lineage of that single Colt gun.

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Slightly Twisted,

 

Your additional pics of the swivels confirm that you have a Berthier on the vertical foregrip and Lebel on the buttstock, exactly as it should be. When you visit one of the shows next year, you can see other examples of French-converted wood, unfortunately without the attached gun like you have. Your gun is very special!

 

As I mentioned earlier, you are going to get differing recommendations on which parts should be replaced if you plan to shoot the gun. In the end, it is simply your call as to what you choose to replace to protect the original condition of your Colt parts.

 

Practically speaking, the three parts most likely to break are: the actuator (particularly the ears); the extractor; and, the ejector. It is unlikely that the internals of your trigger frame will ever fail, though the sear will take some wear, but many purists completely dissemble the trigger frame and replace all of the internals with WWII parts. To make things easier, some folks simply replace the Colt trigger frame with a WWII version to shoot the gun, but that does "show" to even the casual observer.

 

The receiver internals that are often replaced are everything that is drop-in, meaning the complete bolt (which covers the extractor), actuator, Blish lock, buffer, buffer pilot, recoil spring, and breech oiler. Again, most of these parts are unlikely to ever fail, but its more of a CYA treatment. If you do decide to use the original parts, you should at least replace the red buffer disks in the buffer tube with modern neoprene versions, since the original material really doesn't "buffer" very much. If you want to keep the original 1921 cyclic rate of the gun, PK and others can provide you with new or modified WWII parts to maintain the 1921 function/feel. WWII parts (including actuator, recoil spring, buffer and buffer pilot) will be 1928 parts with the lower cyclic rate.

 

On the issue of barrel replacement, you will get strong proponents on both sides. As mentioned above, some folks feel it is appropriate to put on a modern repro barrel for shooting just in case you might bulge the original. Other folks consider the likelihood of a bulged barrel unlikely and don't want to take away from the originality of the gun. As with all of the other potential issues, its ultimately up to you. Many folks I know with Colt guns change the parts that are not visible and leave everything else original.

 

No matter what you decide to change out or not, it would probably be a good idea to purchase a nice WWII parts set so that you at least have all of the potential replacement pieces available.

 

I look forward to hearing more about the history of this gun.

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Slightly Twisted, welcome to the board and congrats on your fantastic Thompson. Tons of board member information and suggestions already.

 

In your profile you indicate location as "Corn fields of Indiana". I am just north of Indianapolis and there are a few Colt Thompson collectors nearby, anyone of us would be happy to walk you through your wonderful firearm.

 

You can PM me if interested.

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I added to the title a bit to help. Here is the info from Gordons last book. Looking forward to seeing this one in person!!

 

F7C46EFC-F86E-45EE-82D0-D9AAB147AA03.jpeg

 

The term pearl was confusing as there was a few guns made called Pearl. This gun however was a pearl in hiding. Very nice with a great history.

 

Ron

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I realize the wrath that I am about to bring down upon myself but nevertheless here goes:

Don’t change out ANY parts. Shoot it exactly the way it is. That’s how it came out of the

factory and that’s how it was meant to be shot. These guns were not made to be babied.

Shoot the bejesus out of it exactly the way it is and enjoy it!

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I realize the wrath that I am about to bring down upon myself but nevertheless here goes:

Dont change out ANY parts. Shoot it exactly the way it is. Thats how it came out of the

factory and thats how it was meant to be shot. These guns were not made to be babied.

Shoot the bejesus out of it exactly the way it is and enjoy it!

This year at TATA a member was shooting his 28 Navy Overstamp, the actuator ear broke during firing. High cycle fatigue is a common failure mode on many original Colt profile actuator ears. The thin cross section is prone to breakage over time. He will likely spend $2,000 to $3,000 to replace this part if lucky enough to find one. At the time he was unaware. Lesson learned but there is a difference in enjoying a gun for what it is and taking a blantant gamble. Id at least change the few parts mentioned by seasoned veterans if you plan to shoot it.

 

Several of us are still shooting Colt guns, but common care should be practiced to prevent breaking rare and very difficult to replace parts.

 

Ron

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The breakage was certainly unfortunate, but how many are shot where nothing breaks. The 21 Colt shoots in

a unique way and replacing the original actuator with a 28 actuator will certainly alter the way it shoots. To each his own,

but I would rather it shoot the way it is supposed to shoot rather than like something else...

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The beauty of that is gunsmiths who produce new parts. I shoot my Colt with a milled down GI actuator, PK hybrid buffer and pilot system and new 21 spring. Shoots just the way it was designed and no worry of turning my $1500 21 actuator into a junk Colt actuator.

 

There are options to have the same as designed functionality without risking a rare original part breaking.

 

Ron

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