Pics of Gordon Ingram later SMG

[FrankSPPD]

Kind of interested in the 1940's and 50's MG world. Talked with the late Gordon Ingram through Mr. Tom Nelson, and later got some extra sales brochures and manuals that Mr Nelson was selling from his extensive SMG library and reference collection.

 

Here are some pics of the covers and from inside. I was told by some Ingram experts that the Erquiaga sales brochure shows the 1st model Ingram SMG#1.............but that is open for debate. Since the Erquiaga Arms Company was raided in MArch 1965, the manual on the left would then predate March 1965. No idea when the second manual is from, but could be from the same time frame as Ingram's prototypes were seized in the raid. The right Ingram manual shows the later prototypes compared to what was considered an normal SMG available on the surplus market (MP40 and Thompson). These pics were also duplicated in Tom Nelson's World 's SMGs, and the MAC MAN.

 

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y421/Miltech1/1d4fc74e-4b69-4750-8c78-dc8a885ce824_zpsfb783c4a.jpg

 

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y421/Miltech1/11484d01-1cd5-454d-9f40-5190c5f8605a_zps7c1223a2.jpg

 

Pardon the Email printed on the pics. Too many people have contacted me through other boards as folks are reusing my pics for less than honorable means.

 

Last pic shows a Guns Magazine issue with an article written by SOF's R.K. Brown on the M11. It often shows up in nice shape on Ebay as Guns Magazine from August 1971.

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y421/Miltech1/HPIM2948_zps4c2f15a7.jpg

[timkel]

I believe you are correct. The M10 on right is prototype #2 as pictured in the Mac Man book. The M10 on left must be Gordon Ingrams prototype #1. Prototype #1 was seized during the Erquiaga Arms raid by the ATF. Mr Ingram did attempt to get his prototype returned. The ATF refused to return his property and later claimed to have destroyed the M10.

Edited August 2, 2014 by timkel

[FrankSPPD]

I think #2 is still in a private collection in Georgia. I had a photo somewhere showing all the experimental Ingrams that went to Vietnam and SE Asia for testing. The weapons seized during the Erquiaga raid were not serialized, so they probably were destroyed, although I did hear from someone in Los Angeles back in the 1990's that some of Ingrams' weapons were actually loaned/given to someone in LA who copied his design and started selling semi carbines with some of the same features. Maybe BS, but I heard this well before Ingram guns were collectable, and from a past job, there were some less than reputable IRS/ATTU/BATF agents on the payroll in the Los Angeles area................especially if you look into some of the high profile investigations of machinegun cases. Evidence had a way of disappearing, and guns were often "lost".

 

My old neighbor was the head of NFA Branch back in the 1970's before retiring to Va Beach, VA area. He often told me that large numbers of weapons were often written off the books since they could not be found in BATF evidence lockers.......probably went home with agents. He also told me of several registered machineguns that had paperwork lost in the filing systems, only to be transferred "blind" several decades later to new owners with no original paperwork...............several dozen Thompsons out of a Connecticut PD and several Stoner Machineguns from Cadillac Gage. The original paperwork was missing, but the index files showed them to be registered within a BATF/IRS/ATTU region..........since there was an index card but no Form 1,2 5, 4 or 6, they still transferred them and the only original paperwork was the last transfer. I wrote a big thread about it over on another board. Seems Treasury has kept it buried for decades since it would require another amnesty...................which aint gonna happen.

 

Still an interesting time in gun history, and Frank I. and Don Thomas did a great job to cover the early history. Most people do not know that almost all of Gordon INgram's early machinegun collection is actualy at Reed Knight's collection, since Armalite bought most of the Police Ordnance collection - which was sold to Knight through Dolf Goldsmith.,

[timkel]

I think #2 is still in a private collection in Georgia. I had a photo somewhere showing all the experimental Ingrams that went to Vietnam and SE Asia for testing. The weapons seized during the Erquiaga raid were not serialized, so they probably were destroyed, although I did hear from someone in Los Angeles back in the 1990's that some of Ingrams' weapons were actually loaned/given to someone in LA who copied his design and started selling semi carbines with some of the same features. Maybe BS, but I heard this well before Ingram guns were collectable, and from a past job, there were some less than reputable IRS/ATTU/BATF agents on the payroll in the Los Angeles area................especially if you look into some of the high profile investigations of machinegun cases. Evidence had a way of disappearing, and guns were often "lost".

 

My old neighbor was the head of NFA Branch back in the 1970's before retiring to Va Beach, VA area. He often told me that large numbers of weapons were often written off the books since they could not be found in BATF evidence lockers.......probably went home with agents. He also told me of several registered machineguns that had paperwork lost in the filing systems, only to be transferred "blind" several decades later to new owners with no original paperwork...............several dozen Thompsons out of a Connecticut PD and several Stoner Machineguns from Cadillac Gage. The original paperwork was missing, but the index files showed them to be registered within a BATF/IRS/ATTU region..........since there was an index card but no Form 1,2 5, 4 or 6, they still transferred them and the only original paperwork was the last transfer. I wrote a big thread about it over on another board. Seems Treasury has kept it buried for decades since it would require another amnesty...................which aint gonna happen.

 

Still an interesting time in gun history, and Frank I. and Don Thomas did a great job to cover the early history. Most people do not know that almost all of Gordon INgram's early machinegun collection is actualy at Reed Knight's collection, since Armalite bought most of the Police Ordnance collection - which was sold to Knight through Dolf Goldsmith.,

Interesting history. The ATF is like any govt regulatory agency. I dealt with EPA auditors for years. You have to watch your back 24/7. The ATF needs to open the registry back up to straighten it out. Gordon Ingram was a genius firearms designer.

I have the same Erquiaga Arms Company flyer. It's also marked $5.00 in pencil, just like the above picture.

I have been interested in the Ingram M10 since the mid 70's. Seeing the Ingrams in books and movies. My first tax stamp for a M10 is dated 78.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/Bridge_CityM10_zps098397ed.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/McQ001.jpg

Edited August 2, 2014 by timkel

[FrankSPPD]

Wow, that's a name from the past........................Fred Rexer. I bought some gun parts from him at the old Houston Gun Show back in the 1970's. He knew a family friend of mine, and he gave me the "Brother in Law" discount. I salivated over a brand new M1A1 "Tanker" Thompson he had on his table at the show. He supposedly had a dozen of them in the same shape, all amnesty registered by a South Texas LEO.......................years later, I had to travel to Houston on business and ran into a retired Sheriff, who had been elected in the central part of the State, but had been a Texas Ranger on the Gulf coast. He was buying a butt load of 45 ammo for shooting......when I got to talk to him a bit, since I was carrying a Colt Series 70 that had been 100% engraved in the Philippines, and wore elephant ivory stocks with the USMC EGA and the Naval Intelligence badge on the other side....................he offered me ..................wait for it.........................a 100% new WW2 M1A1 Thompson with Tanker metal strap on the front handguard. He said he was a Vietnam era Marine, and his best friend was a former Ranger and Naval Intelligence agent...........................The Thompson was transferrable, and when I followed him to his sprawling home...................I saw a wall covered with Thompsons, AK47's and even a M60. I thought he may have brought them home from Vietnam...................nope.....................He bought the Thompsons for $100 each from Interarms and had a dozen, and he bought all the AK's, Colt thompsons and the M60 from Fred Rexer..............................this was in the early 1980's, and Fred Rexer was later to gain fame as a screen writer in Hollywood, and he even had a bt part in John Milius' Red Dawn......................which I saw at the movie theater at Brunswich, GA when I was the the Federal training center being checked out on the new Walther MP subguns and Mini Uzi SMG that US Customs had bought for the South Florida Drug Task force. Never saw Fred again, and I sold that Thompson a few years ago still unfired, but it went back to Texas.

[timkel]

Fred Rexer...never met the man, may have spoken to him over the phone. Calling Texas was long distance for me. Back then we were still writing letters. I did enjoy his books and catalogs. His catalogs are a good reference on class 3 stuff at that time.

The book "Bridge City" was very good. I am surprised it was never made into a movie.

In Red Dawn, didn't Fred Rexer play the Russian tank commander?

Some pics of his books and catalogs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/fredrexer0021_zps8453b6bc.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/fredrexer0011_zpsd0a23b6e.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/fredrexer0031_zps6cdb6377.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/fredrexer0041_zps5f87b9f5.jpg

Edited August 3, 2014 by timkel

[dalbert]

I also have some Erquiaga paper items with the "$5.00" penciled in marking on them. I have one for a prototype Erquiaga- Ingram Assault Rifle, also. Here are the 3 Erquiaga items from my collection:

 

I also have the following MAC manuals:

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[timkel]

A pair of original M10 manuals. The #1 manual was written for the M10 model with the lever latch on the take down. In 1972/73 the upper receiver was simplified to reduce cost. The lever latch was dropped and replace with a simpler spring loaded take down pin. The #2 manual was edited to detail both type of pins.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/MACm10Manuals001_zps44698541.jpg

[timkel]

Manual #1

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/MACm10Manuals003_zps1a69f003.jpg

 

Manual #2

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/timkel24102410/stuff/MACm10Manuals002_zpsea543468.jpg

[MACMAN]

Actually a lot of the Ingram's Reed Knight has he bought himself at the MAC auction. He was at the auction and bought pallets of guns as some people like to say. I have seen all of his Ingram's that he owns. They are not on a pallet. But he has enough to fill a couple of pallets.

[FrankSPPD]

No MACMAN, I meant that Reed Knight bought most of the Armalite reference collection of weapons that was the personal collection of the late head of Armalite, George Sullivan. The collection was kept at Armalite, Costa Mesa along with many of the early production and prototype Armalite guns.

 

Come to find out that Armalite had bought all of the Police Ordnance weapons collection, which had many of the personal automatic weapons of Gordon Ingram. As a very young child, I stayed with a relative, who lived in Los Angeles in the 1960's. My relative was a hot rod automobile fanatic, who owned a Hurst Ford Mustang Shelby - which even then was pretty rare......a writer at Peterson Publications, who published Hot Rod magazine, Car and Driver and Guns and Ammo was after that car........part of the deal during that summer of 1970 was he would buy that Hurst Shelby and trade a few guns to boot. We were invited to a shoot at a public range above North Hollywood, where I remember firing a 1928 TSMG, a little MAS38 subgun and a Reising. The demo was being run by Armalite and a staffer from Guns and Ammo, who also wrote for the car rags.

 

There were about 40 other sub and full size MGs. It was a demo for the magazine and some police and military types. They did all the tricks like shoot the AR18 from the chin and chop down the cinder block walls, etc. That was back in the day of crew cuts and shooting jackets. It was also my first introduction to what a Narcotics Agent was...................which ended up being a lifelong experience.

 

Best thing wasnt the shooting, but to get to go to the Universal Studios tour and ride in my uncle's new Plymouth Super Bird 440 Magnum in Green Go color.............which was the same color as the Swedish K subguns at the time........................................Cheers

[gunhistorian]

This is a comment on FrankSPPD's post in August regarding the Ingram prototype and its alleged use to reverse engineer a gun made in L.A. I spoke with Mr. Ingram on another matter, having been referred to him by the fellow in L.A. making the alleged copies of the Ingram. (Can't remember his name, but I'm sure someone here will have it at his fingertips!). The fellow gave me Ingram's phone number and said "Don't tell him I gave you his phone number. We are involved in a lawsuit." When asked, I told Ingram who gave me his phone number and he chuckled and said the fellow was really an old friend and that the lawsuit wasn't "personal". It was a patent infringement suit, I believe, and the fellow who gave me Ingram's contact information was making the Terry "carbine" (and an Ingram clone before that). Sorry I can't remember his name. Old age isn't all that much fun! GOT IT! The other party (who was involved in the lawsuit and who gave me contact info for Ingram was Ray Wilkerson or Wilkenson).

Edited October 31, 2014 by gunhistorian

[MACMAN]

The " Terry" "Linda" gun story is covered in The Mac Man book on page 79.