Consecutive Number 3 Digit Colts For Sale

[DLansky]

Not my listing, but I know the seller and have seen the guns. I previously posted pictures of the guns before the late Mr Moeller restored them.

 

https://www.machineguncentral.com/ViewDetails.aspx?p=627--79c0bf8d-61ae-4061-a350-8252de5b63a2

 

[huggytree]

Does this price have any basis is reality ?

 

Were both owned by babyface ?

[buzz]

Two dewatted and then rewatted and refinished colts for $250k

 

I guess I'll pass on that.

[full auto 45]

There these the two that were at the SAR show in 2016? I remember looking at two with the similar story. Can not remember those serial numbers.

[Adg105200]

But the shipping is free! Lol. It also says OBO, so what would the value really be on them?

 

Andrew

[wwiifirearms]

I see two factors influencing value relative to similar guns:

1. Consecutive numbers

2. Restoration

 

My experience has been that consecutive serial number do NOT bring a significant premium on high-end firearms for several reasons. First, the number of people that can afford one is already small, far fewer can afford two. Second, those that can afford two might prefer two variations (21a and 21ac) rather than identical Guns. Unless there is some other factor, like the both went on ethe same shipment to Baby Face, I dont see added value.

 

For me restoration always hurts value on an historic firearm. They are only original once. Someone else can always restore a gun, but you cant unrestore a gun. If the gun is trashed, broken, and filled with wwii parts, restoration probably doesnt hurt it much, but it doesnt add value beyond the cost of the restoration.

 

Bottom line, I think you have two $35,000-$40,000 Guns. If the seller wont separate them, I think it hurts the value. As a pair $60,000 and they buyer would probably do well if they separated them and sold them.

[colt21a]

The wild deal I know the history on these they once had been handled by Earl.And I was offered them from Don in Nevada maybe 20 years ago for someplace in the area of $20 grand to $40 grand.I was selling Thompsons cheaper at the time so had little interest I passed the lead to somebody and forgot all about them.. low and behold one year they appear locked down to a display board at SAR show looking good. for $200 grand or something. I meet the new owner.We become bud's and I sell him a bunch of goodies.

 

The rest is History ha ha I hope Mike gets what ever he can. He is a real nice guy to do business with. And I would have no problem doing any business with him in Thompsons or anything else. glad this was posted.. good times.Colt 21A Ron

[OCM]

I disagree with the final statement that these are the most historically significant Thompsons .... Colt Chopper has leveled that playing field AND in private hands.

I got dizzy reading the description.

[buzz]

I'm not sure what he's trying to say with that hocus pokus about eroding the weld metal.

 

When you weld something, you melt part of the base metal and adjacent to that you have a "heat affected zone", where the metal microstructure was altered by the melting of the base metal.

 

See in the picture how the horizontal plate base metal has weld metal melted into it?

 

And the end of the vertical piece is completely melted away. Originally it would have been a V shape.

 

It's great that they took a lot of care to properly re-watt these two guns, but they are still re-watts.

Edited December 16, 2017 by buzz

[buzz]

Ever notice that when guns are overpriced they often are accompanied by a very large and flowery sounding description of their supreme excellence?

 

I wonder if that kind of thing actually works to sell a gun for more money. I find it off-putting.

 

When I sell a gun I use a lot of big bright pictures and just a small description. People want a lot of pictures.

[buzz]

Getting back to the welds, the kind of weld that is done by a certified fabrication shop is 10000 times better than what a farmer does with a welder on a broken motor mount.

 

The farmer is going to have a ton of incomplete fusion, bubbles, slag, oxidation, cracks and inclusions in his weld. Also, there will be residual stress in the weld that can be as high as the yield point of the base metal.

 

Even field welding by a certified professional welder is not that great. That's why we repair structures in the field with bolted plates instead of welded plates.

 

Welding is very difficult to do well and it is a brutal thing to do to the base metal.

 

Most people think that welding is like gluing something but it's not. You are literally melting the pieces together and it is a very "intrusive" operation, it changes the lattice structure of the base metal.

Edited December 16, 2017 by buzz

[huggytree]

Ever notice that when guns are overpriced they often are accompanied by a very large and flowery sounding description of their supreme excellence?

 

I wonder if that kind of thing actually works to sell a gun for more money. I find it off-putting.

 

When I sell a gun I use a lot of big bright pictures and just a small description. People want a lot of pictures.

Its because their owners are not in reality anymore and have built up a story in their head to justify their guns being worth in this case 4xs what real prices are. I do notice this issue with Thompsons more than other guns. Sorry guys. The gun is unique for nutty owners and their ability to create a story in their head about their great gun. They not only make the coolaid. They are the first to drink it too

 

Weve seen this stuff over and over. Stories that cant be true. Scariest part is these guys own machine guns and were just 1 bad news story away from losing all of ours

Edited December 16, 2017 by huggytree

[Petroleum 1]

This guy probably talked with the hardware store marines in Italy M1 guy lol...Geez I wonder what this does for colt choppers gun value?? he has the REAL DEAL!!!

[huggytree]

This stuff has been going on for years. When I was looking a guy had a 1928ac he claimed was nos. sandman went to look at it. I asked if he could disable to inspect condition to verify its a brand new 1942 1928ac and he refused. Claiming he did not have to price the gun was nos. He said no one is taking apart a brand new 1928ac. This gun had a reserve of $40,000 or maybe $45,000. I offered as much as $28,000 as it was nice condition. He wouldnt even respond. That gun sat on GB for 1.5 years.

 

Theres a m6 for $40,000 right now. No logical reason

Edited December 16, 2017 by huggytree

[Black River Militaria CII]

Having reactivated several hundred registered DEWATs in my experience it is extremely rare to find a breech weld that is well done with much penetration. Often a piece of rod of some sort, usually mild steel, is placed in the chamber as a weld flow stop and the top of the rod will fuse with the weld filling the mouth of the chamber. the best penetration is when the chamber has been filled and the arc is moved around the circumference of the breech face. This is often the weld that is most difficult to remove since penetration is more successful. Generally in my experience, the breech filling weld fuses well with the chamber walls with little or no burning or bubbling which leaves an excellent chamber wall when cleaned out and cleaned up with a reamer. The most prevalent issue when these DEWAT breech welds were done was oil, grease or similar contaminants in the breech when the weld was done. Contaminants create gas which bubbles the weld. Another comment consequence of the arc was arc scarring of the chamber below the weld if no plug was used. These scars are very difficult to deal with if somewhat deep in the chamber as the fired case will expand into the scars and inhibit extraction.

As noted above electric welding, the universal means of DEWATing MGs alters the structure of the parent metal but that is rarely a problem with restoration of the chamber. The cross-section of the welded T in the picture above only represents what occurs with a breech weld in a very general way. The penetration of the weld in the cross-section illustrates the fact that the arc is directed on the axis of the rod which creates the deep penetration, which also requires time to effect.. Breech welds in DEWATs in the best of cases delivered the arc penetration mostly on the axis of the chamber and very little to the sidewalls where penetration was slight. The tip of the rod would be moved back and forth a bit in the very limited space for a very short period of time so the effect of the arc weld on the chamber walls can be quite insubstantial. If the barrel was removed for the chamber weld it was much easier for the welder to see what he was doing and create a better weld deposit, but not so much when the barrel was still in the receiver.

There is no info about whether the barrels on these guns were removed to weld the breeches and if they were not what damage was done with the arc in the beech area. It would be interesting to see the breech area. I recall seeing these guns but not having much interest in their special consecutive number status, I didn't pay much attention to them. At the time I owned a number of some Colt and military Thompons and had lot sod other MG interests.

The EDM process is a very accurate way to remove metal and a good application for removing the weld, but the chambers would still need finishing once the weld was close to being fully removed. Sounds like one barrel was successfully restored and the other was replaced. Colt barrels were fairly easy too find at the time when these were done.

Anyway, welded DEWATs are really not especially difficult to restore, contrary to the opinion of many who never deal with them, and also probably would be very annoying to the proponents of the DEWAT program of the mid 1940s and the later DEWAT commercial endeavors. Welding of the MGs sounded very convincing as a positive defense against the guns ever being live again, but that was easily publicly disproven as early as 1957 by media concerns about reactivations of DEWATs.

FWIW

[buzz]

Black River, interesting info, as usual. If I ever re-wat a gun, you will definitely be the guy to do it.

 

I was just making the point that welding is actually a very harsh process. Most people seem to think it's like using a hot glue gun.

 

It does seem like these guns were very carefully re-watted.

Edited December 16, 2017 by buzz

[buzz]

As far as the value of these guns go, if a minty original Colt sells for $45k or so, there's no reason to pay the same exact price for a refinished gun or a rewat.

 

Every step down the ladder from 100% original is going to be a step down in collector value.

 

Even if the re-wat process only involved replacement of the barrel and the receiver was not touched, the value is still lower than a mint original gun.

 

The price of these guns is probably about 3 times what they would actually sell for at auction.

Edited December 16, 2017 by buzz

[mohawk64]

This stuff has been going on for years. When I was looking a guy had a 1928ac he claimed was nos. sandman went to look at it. I asked if he could disable to inspect condition to verify its a brand new 1942 1928ac and he refused. Claiming he did not have to price the gun was nos. He said no one is taking apart a brand new 1928ac. This gun had a reserve of $40,000 or maybe $45,000. I offered as much as $28,000 as it was nice condition. He wouldnt even respond. That gun sat on GB for 1.5 years.

Theres a m6 for $40,000 right now. No logical reason

The M6 is a form 10 gun also.

[huggytree]

arent all ingram m6's prison/police guns?

 

i assumed mine was...does this = pos or neg? (the form 10)

[Petroleum 1]

What is a form 10??

[mohawk64]

I got crossed up. My bad.

The sequential guns listed on this post are most likely transferrable. The colts listed on gunbroker and discussed in another thread are form 10 guns.

 

That means they can only be owned by a government entity. No dealer. No individual. Ever.

 

I apologise profusely for getting threads crossed. Again.... Im sure the sequential serial#guns are transferable.

[Black River Militaria CII]

Form 10 is for government use only with NFA weapons that are ineligible for possession by individuals or non-governmental entities. Once an MG has been registered on a10, it is frozen for good and can never be transferred on any other form again nor can it be possessed by any other than a governmental entity. A museum can still “destroy” the receiver of the MG and sell the parts if so desi red, so that is a tiny upside.

Many unregistered MGs are “transferred” to qualified museums using the 10. “Unregistered” MGs can include those MGs in limbo that are actually registered but for which the registrant is unknown or there is no relative of person available to act as power-of-attorney to sign the transfer out of the name of the deceased registrant. MGs turn up in the possession of people who have no relationship to the original registrant or know who It might be. There are other scenarios where actually registered MGs wind up on 10s to museums. They als get destroyed. Currently, ATF has no legal mechanism or legal protocol for transferring MGs that are still in the names of deceased registrants who have no connnection to any living relatives, legal reps or whom nobody knows. Many such “in limbo” MGs require opening up probate again, notifying possible beneficiaries, etc.

Anyway, that’s a whole other can of worms. Suffice it to say that keeping MGs off of 10s is the best policy since once they are on a 10, they are gone for good.

[michaelkih]

Damn shame those early guns were refinished.

[ftc3906]

Why were these two guns dewated in the first place?

[ppgcowboy]

Because the owner lived in and amongst the peoples republic of California, and the idiots wno vote democrat and accept a nanny state, and do not trust law abiding citizens to own a live mg. Note, I am not talking about the voters that vote against the nanny state. Edited December 22, 2017 by ppgcowboy