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C&R in initial NFA registration


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#1 bbrown

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 07:19 AM

I recently took possession of a late-WW2 Japanese Type 99 MG (dated 20.2).  The previous owner insisted that he could not transfer it to me using my C&R FFL since it was not in the NFA registry as a C&R gun, so we went through the Form3-to-dealer-to-Form4-to-me process.

 

Naturally I would like to find out whether or not the gun is in the NFA registry as C&R, but it's unclear to me how to proceed.  The BATFE web site says that they keep electronic images of initial registration forms, and that they're available to the public, but they don't go into the actual steps to follow to get this information (presumably through an FOIA request).

 

Would some kind soul walk me through the steps I need to take?  Or is there another way to find out?

 

IMHO it would be desirable for future caretakers to have documented proof that the gun can or cannot be transferred on a C&R FFL.

 

Thanks,

 

Bryan

 

 

 


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#2 TSMGguy

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 11:48 AM

Guns are not listed on forms 3 or 4 as C&R. That listing is contained in ATF Publication 5300.11. Your Type 99 is listed in Section IV, National Firearms Act Weapons Classified As Curios Or Relics Under 18 USC Chapter 44.  After BATFE approval, the firearm is directly transferable to the holder of an 03 C&R license. Sounds to me like the seller you mentioned was not comfortable with this process, and so insisted on a dealer transfer. Another common misconception is that if the firearm crosses state lines, dealers must be involved in both states. Not so.     


Edited by TSMGguy, 13 April 2019 - 11:57 AM.

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#3 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 12:22 PM

MGs can identifed on a registration form as C+R if the registrant received it on his FFL03 license or the transferee transfered it and listed his FFLO3. FFL info block includes the license numbers. A transferor dosent need to list his license number on an F4 to transfer an MG. FWIW

Edited by Black River Militaria CII, 13 April 2019 - 12:23 PM.

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#4 bbrown

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 03:39 PM

Thanks for the information.  I didn't understand why he was not willing to do the transfer using my C&R, thinking that maybe he didn't want to retain possession for the duration of the transfer period.  Whatever made him comfortable, at least I have the beauty now.


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#5 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 07:37 PM

Interesting, I just spoke with a larger dealer today and he has stopped doing outbound form 4 transfers to customers.  He's aging and tired of the wait.  He'll gladly form 3 to anyone and save the space, insurance, and aggravation.  I really had to agree, it's beyond ridiculous at this point and those in charge at atf should have their paychecks processed along with form 4's.  5100 employees need some temporary re-allocation and/or they need to revise the process to get back to 60 days or less. 


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#6 RoscoeTurner

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 07:58 AM

About twelve years ago I had to deal with an idiot SOT who insisted I could not pick up a Thompson transferred with a C&R at a show and that the firearm MUST be shipped to my C&R FFL address.  Asked him repeatedly for a reference for that in the regulations.  After over a week of going back and forth with this clown he finally agreed to "allow" me to pick the gun up at a show we were both scheduled to attend and even then he treated it as if it were an illegal drug deal. For many dealers C&Rs are a murky world, many have no clue of the ins and outs of a C&R.


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#7 ppgcowboy

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 09:35 AM

My C&R is mainly so I can travel out of state without the paperwork.
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#8 johnsonlmg41

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:56 AM

About twelve years ago I had to deal with an idiot SOT who insisted I could not pick up a Thompson transferred with a C&R at a show and that the firearm MUST be shipped to my C&R FFL address.  Asked him repeatedly for a reference for that in the regulations.  After over a week of going back and forth with this clown he finally agreed to "allow" me to pick the gun up at show we were both scheduled to attend and even then he treated it as if it were an illegal drug deal. For many dealers C&Rs are a murky world, many have no clue of the ins and outs of a C&R.

I've been down that same road, even with longtime SOT's.   It can be frustrating teaching old dogs new tricks and some are just incapable of learning.  I used to hold both and do all my C+R DD transfers on the C+R since it was much cheaper and easier than an 03 with limits. 

 

ppgcowboy, I can't even imagine the time I've saved over the years not filing travel forms?  Not to mention, when I go, I grab "whatever" "whenever" the day before at most, so filing would be near impossible.  Again another antiquated system that needs to be fixed or done away with. 


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#9 TSMGguy

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 10:42 AM

... For many dealers C&Rs are a murky world, many have no clue of the ins and outs of a C&R.

 

I think another problem is that there are holders of other classes of FFL who see a class 03 FFL holder as a threat to their livelihoods. For me, it's simple. If someone is hesitant to ship to me, I don't say another word, I just take my business elsewhere.


Edited by TSMGguy, 15 April 2019 - 10:44 AM.

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#10 ron_brock

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:02 AM



... For many dealers C&Rs are a murky world, many have no clue of the ins and outs of a C&R.

 
I think another problem is that there are holders of other classes of FFL who see a class 03 FFL holder as a threat to their livelihoods. For me, it's simple. If someone is hesitant to ship to me, I don't say another word, I just take my business elsewhere.
This is my pet peeve. As an FFL holder you should know if you can ship to me as a C&R. Maybe we should invoke the ACLU for discrimination

Ron
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#11 RoscoeTurner

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 05:40 PM

I maintain 01 and 03 FFLs, if at a show and it is a personal purchase I first try to use the 03 then the 01.  Gives me great satisfaction when some seller tells me I will have to find someone with a "real" FFL to make the transfer then the look on his face when I hand him my 01 FFL with the SOT at the bottom.


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#12 Sandman1957

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 09:08 PM

Speed dial the NFA Division on your phone and hand it to the clown who says it can't be done.  Then ask him if he understands.  If he refuses to sell, tell him you will file a complaint against him with the NFA for being ignorant of the laws and non-compliant.


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