Case

[chitowngangster]

Arthur,

Since it preoccupied you so much i went digging into my site for you and that case was not part of the cache found as seen in this photo

I'm including.The cases at the scene look more like suitcase luggage of the sort.

 

So i guess you're right on your point. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

 

Chitown

 

http://members.fortunecity.com/moran9/903106d0.jpg

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Thanks for the confirmation and the pics. I think this board serves many functions for different people. But aside from sharing photos and stories, the novel aspect of the board is the discovery of new info on the TSMG and on occasion, the clarification on previously firmly held beliefs and assumptions on the minutia of accessories and the weapon itself.

[full auto 45]

WOW! He had a Winchester '07 .351. I wish I know the number on it to compare it to the 2 I have. Does the Police still have that Winchester .351?

[chitowngangster]

QUOTE (full auto 45 @ Oct 10 2004, 08:12 PM)

WOW! He had a Winchester '07 .351. I wish I know the number on it to compare it to the 2 I have. Does the Police still have that Winchester .351?

Hello Mike,

From what the officers told me there is that back in those days some of the recovered weapons would fall to the wayside into a policeman collection if he favored the gun.Those Winchesters were not there when i visited.

 

Chitown

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

They dumped the big stuff in Lake Superior. That's what the Edmund Fitzgerald hit.

[giantpanda4]

Actually there is a very viable theory that the Fitz hit the Lake Superior Shoals (20" below the surface) off the tip of the Keweenaw, and subsequently fatigued in the high waves.

 

Don't ask the USCG, they will say hatch covers, but recent photos disprove that. And yes, it does matter - to the insurance companies that never paid te victims families due to the faulty hatch cover theory of the USCG.

 

I lived in the UP for 11 yeras, it is still debated now!

[philasteen]

As a former Michigan resident and big follower of the Edmund Fitzgerald story, the only thing to say is that the cause is unknown. The official coast guard report of water coming in through faulty hatch covers is at least partially discredited. With no further investigation planned (or permitted, since the wreck is off limits to exploration), we may never know.

 

Just think, some of the taconite pellets on board could have been used to make steel for West Hurley Thompsons.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

The recovered ship's bell from the Edmond Fitzgerald was made from melted down confiscated TSMG's.

[John Jr]

QUOTE (hardrede @ Oct 12 2004, 08:50 PM)

AF, I really am tired of coming here and reading your pabulum. Why don't you try a board that appreciates narcissisum????

He never quits.... Asshat Arthur....

 

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

QUOTE

AF, I really am tired of coming here and reading your pabulum. Why don't you try a board that appreciates narcissisum????

 

I'm already missing you in anticipation of your absence. Oh, by the way is "narcissisum" a relative of narcissism?

[21 smoker]

hardrede,...I remember when the Tall Ships sailed down the Great Lakes in 1976 for the Bicentennial celebrations and the captains of these ships voicing their concerns about the type and frequency of the waves...interesting that insurance was denied...I thought at the time it was just folklore... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

[Nick Iannamico]

I can open up the " Tommy Jr." forums if you kids want to fight nicely amongst yourselves.

[Notch]

Wow... What was this thread about again....? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

[Lancer]

QUOTE (Notch @ Oct 14 2004, 02:10 PM)

Wow... What was this thread about again....? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

Notch,

Welcome to the board. Don't worry about these guys, they'll settle down soon. Seems like every 4-5 weeks one of these s--t slinging matches erupts and ya just gotta keep your head down till the s--t stops flying. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

 

Well I'm going to crawl back behind my rock. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif

 

Gentlemen, you may continue. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Big D,

I think those emails would be most entertaining to read. My parents always taught me to share.

 

Here is some more Edmond Fitzgerald minutia to take up more band width.

 

"The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee"

 

Gitche Gumee translates roughly to "Shining Big-Sea-Water".

 

"The lake it is said never gives up her dead when the skies of November turn gloomy"

 

To put it rather bluntly, the reason so few bodies are recovered from off shore drownings

in Lake Superior is because the bodies first tend to sink (or are still on board a vessel) but

because of the depth and frigid temperatures, the victims do not naturally decompose.

Because of the lack of oxygen producing organisms, the bodies remain on the bottom.

 

"With a load of iron ore 26,000 tons more than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty"

 

When empty, the Fitzgerald weighed 8,686 net tons. The hold was filled with 26,013 tons

of iron ore pellets called taconite, used mainly for automobile production.

 

"That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed when the gales of November came early"

 

Lake superior is on average 533 feet deep with an extreme depth of 1333 feet. It is 400

miles long which, when the wind blows across it's length, the waves can build to greater

heights than found on less dense sea water, even in hurricane winds.

 

"The ship was the pride of the American side"

 

The Fitz was named after a Milwaukee banker and was launched into the River Rouge

basin in June 1958. The owner was Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company of

Milwaukee and operated by Oglebay Norton.

 

"Comin' back from some mill in Wisconsin"

 

Superior, Wisconsin.

 

"As the big freighters go it was bigger than most"

 

The ship was 729 feet long, 75 feet wide, 39 feet deep. She was the largest Great Lakes

steamer when launched in 1958, its size limited only by the largest lock on Sault St, Marie.

Larger 1000 ft. boats were possible after the construction of the Poe lock in 1969.

 

"With a crew and good captain well seasoned"

 

Captain Ernest R. McSorley, 62 years old, started sailing as a deckhand on ocean vessels

when he was 18 years old. After transferring to freshwater freighters, he made his way

through the ranks, eventually becoming the youngest to make captain.

 

"Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms when they left fully loaded for Cleveland"

 

The Fitzgerald was "downbound" to unload its cargo in Detroit and then continue on to

Cleveland to dock for the winter months.

 

"And later that night when the ship's bell rang could it be the north wind they'd bin feelin'"

 

The Fitzgerald and the Anderson, a second freighter following close behind, knew of the

gale warnings posted by the National Weather Service. They decided to alter their course

and head towards the North shore of Superior for shelter against the heart of the storm.

 

"The wind in the wires made a tattletale sound and a wave broke over the railing"

 

The two boats (great lake sailors prefer "boat" to "ship"), followed the Canadian shore to

the Caribou Island near "Six Fathom Shoals." The Anderson's captain Jesse "Bernie"

Cooper, remarks how close the Fitz is to the shoals. Crossing the lake in an attempt to

harbor the storm, the two make a course for Whitefish Bay Michigan. In heavy seas, the

Fitzgerald sustains topside damage and radios the Anderson, "Anderson, this is the

Fitzgerald. I have sustained some topside damage. I have a fence rail laid down, two vents

lost or damaged, and a list. I'm checking down. Will you stay by me till I get to Whitefish?"

 

"And every man knew as the captain did too, 'twas the witch of November come stealin'"

 

The Fitzgerald has two radar sets but both use a common antenna. The Fitzgerald calls on

the radio to the Arthur M. Anderson. "Anderson, this is the Fitzgerald. I have lost both

radars. Can you provide me with radar plots till we reach Whitefish Bay?"

 

"Charlie on that, Fitzgerald. We'll keep you advised of your position."

 

"The dawn came late and the breakfast had to wait when the gales of November came slashin'"

 

Winds were 40 to 45 knots with waves to 20 ft.

 

"When afternoon came it was freezin' rain in the face of a hurricane west wind"

 

The Sault St, Marie Locks report winds of seventy knots, gusts up to eighty-two, about

ninety-five mph!

 

" When supper time came the old cook came on deck sayin' "fellas it's too rough to feed ya"

 

Ironically, the "old" cook was suffering from bleeding ulcers and was unable to make the

last voyage. He is considered by some as "the sole survivor of the Fitzgerald".

 

"At seven p.m. a main hatchway caved in he said "fellas it's been good to know ya"

 

The Anderson reports being hit by two huge waves which go over the pilot house, 35 feet

above the water line.

 

"The captain wired in he had water comin' in and the good ship and crew was in peril"

 

Although McSorley told the Anderson he had developed a list and was, in fact, taking on

water, his main concern was that because of the loss of radar and new reports of the

Whitefish Bay Lighthouse being broken down, the Fitzgerald was sailing blind and due to

the list, the Fitzgerald was pulling to the left. They had to rely on the Anderson for

guidance. When the Anderson radioed back later to ask how they were doing with their

problem, McSorley replied "We are holding our own". That was the last thing heard from

the Fitzgerald.

 

"And later that night when 'is lights went out of sight came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald"

 

The tremendous waves on Lake Superior kept interfering with the Anderson's radar,

showing the Fitzgerald some 10 miles ahead of her. As the Anderson would dip with a

large wave, the Fitzgerald and all other boats in the area would disappear, showing up

again as the Anderson would crest. At 7:10 the Anderson rose above a wave and the

radar showed three blips, saltwater ships, the Navafors, the Avafors, and the Benfri about

20 miles down bound. But no Fitzgerald. In the span of just a few seconds, with no distress

call, the Fitzgerald was gone.

 

"Does anyone know where the love of god goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours"

 

The Anderson contacted the Coast Guard in Sault St. Marie. "Soo Control, this is the

Anderson. I am very concerned about the welfare of the steamer Edmund Fitzgerald. He

was right in front of us, experiencing a little difficulty. He was taking on a small amount of

water and none of the up bound ships have passed him. I can see no lights as before and I

don't have him on radar. I just hope he didn't take a nose dive!"

 

The air temperature at the time was 49 degrees and the water temperature was 40

degrees. Under these conditions a man would go into shock in 30 minutes.

 

"The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay if they'd put fifteen more miles behind 'er"

 

A floating debris field was found the next morning and a 1000 yard long oil slick about 13

miles from Whitefish Point. On later days, small objects were found near the Canadian

shore, life vests and rings, bottles, splintered wood, the largest object being a crumpled raft

with the Fitzgerald's name.

 

"They might have split up or they might have capsized they may have broke deep and took water"

 

The wreckage is in two major pieces. The bow section is 276 feet long and upright. The

stern section is 253 feet long and upside down. The sections are 170 feet apart. About 200

feet of the midsection is disintegrated. Although there is no conclusive evidence pointing to

what the cause was, the most popular theory is that because the Fitz was taking on water,

the taconite cargo shifted toward the bow making it unbalanced, heavy to the front. When

the Fitz plunged into the valley between two large waves, she submarined to the bottom,

striking the lake's floor with enough force to break her in two.

 

"And all that remains is the faces and the names of the wives and the sons and the daughters"

 

There has been no attempt by the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum at Whitefish Point,

which had made several exploratory expeditions down to the wreckage, to recover the

crew.

 

"Lake Huron rolls Superior sings

in the rooms of her ice water mansion

Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams

the islands and bays are for sportsmen

and farther below Lake Ontario

takes in what Lake Erie can send her

and the Iron boats go as the mariners all know

with the gales of November remembered"

 

There is estimated to be more than 6000 commercial shipwrecks in the Great Lakes, and

fewer than half of these have been located.

 

"In a musty old hall in Detroit they prayed

in the maritime sailors' cathedral

the church bell chimed 'til it rang 29 times

for each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald"

 

The ship went down in Lake Superior on November 10, 1975 with 29 men on board.

 

"The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down

of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee

Superior they said never gives up her dead

when the gales of November come early"

[John Jr]

http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Hardrede,

 

I've just been contacted by Mr. Lightfoot. He said as long as I didn't sing along as I posted his lyrics he wouldn't prosecute.

 

Did you never get over being passed up for the safety patrol in your elementary school?

 

JJ,

That was your most profound post to date.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

BigD,

Yeah, they covered that on WKRP when 11 people died back in 79 outside Riverfront Coliseum in Cincinnati, OH. But I think Gordon had it in his contract that he wouldn't play "festival seating" concerts for fear the rock fans wouldn't be able to contain themselves from expressing violent grief when he segued from "If You Could Read My Mind" into "The Wreck of The EF."

 

We must be precise since the self christened hall monitor is very literal.

[John Jr]

Some of you old guys are really entertaining.

 

Jr

[SecondAmend]

hardrede,

 

My kids told me they knew MY dementia had set in when I bought the Thompson. Of course, that was before they saw the value go up, up, up. Now they call me crazy for not having bought more.

 

2A

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

I hope after you do your lunch room duty, you clean it up.

[Walter63a]

Perhaps we could hold the, "World's First Spelling Bee And Trivia Contest For Machinegunners!" http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif Where is Alex Trebek when he is truly needed! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

BigD,

I doubt he can see the pink through the padding.

[Merry Ploughboy]

FWIW re copyright infringement in general, the U.S. Copyright Act has a "Fair Use" exception. See 17 U.S.C. sec. 107.