Jump to content

WTK How to install spring and pilot without a hole in the pilot?


Recommended Posts

I found this on this web site but I do not have a hole in my pilot rod. How do I install? The spring just bends when I try to push it into the bolt? Thanks for any help.

 

"Reassemble in reverse order. Place the spring over the pilot and push it down as far as it will go by hand. Then place a paper clip or other piece of thin metal through the hole in the end of the pilot (make sure the flat place on the pilot flange is facing away from you) to trap the spring. This process makes it easier to insert the free end of the spring in the bolt/actuator and lever the end of the pilot back into the receiver hole. Once this is accomplished, pull out the paper clip/metal and the spring will rebound. Finally reinstall the trigger housing."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hold the compressed spring and pilot with one hand. With the opposite hand under the receiver, move the actuator and bolt back towards the rear of the receiver with the loose end of the spring and tip of the pilot in the hole in the bolt. You can then maneuver the pilot into the receiver keeping the bolt retracted with the other hand and the spring shouldn't kink. It is awkward at first but after some practice, you'll get it. If you don't like that method, get a pilot with a hole, just like Huggy mentioned. Edited by gijive
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I made a couple of the copper ones, Jim shows. Work great. Easy.

Think Chris' would do the same, looks to be the same principle.

 

OCM

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first buffer pilots manufactured by Savage Arms appeared to be manufactured just like the earlier Colt's pilots - without the hole. See page 136 of my book for an example from a very early 18,000 serial numbered Savage Thompson. Also note the location of the "S" marking is on the side of the buffer pilot flange, not the flat part of the flange. Given how difficult these no-hole Savage buffer pilots are to locate, I would guess the hole was added soon after production began.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Savage Commercial has a buffer pilot with no hole.

 

I have installed it one second flat on the first try, and I've have taken fifteen minutes and 30 tries.

 

There is a definite knack to it but it is 1000% harder than just using a pilot with a hole.

 

It really is a pointless PITA and I recommend just getting a later pilot

Edited by buzz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first buffer pilots manufactured by Savage Arms appeared to be manufactured just like the earlier Colt's pilots - without the hole. See page 136 of my book for an example from a very early 18,000 serial numbered Savage Thompson. Also note the location of the "S" marking is on the side of the buffer pilot flange, not the flat part of the flange. Given how difficult these no-hole Savage buffer pilots are to locate, I would guess the hole was added soon after production began.

Tom,

Being an avid reader on the subject of Thompsons, I note on page 137 of your book, that thee is a copy of British War Department "Instruction to Guide Modification to Return Spring rod", (buffer Pilot), for the placement of the hole in the rod. So would I be correct in saying that Savage followed the British lead, by adding the holes in production of their the buffer pilots?

 

I am also happy to have one of the recoil Spring assembly tools shown on page 138 of your book, in my collection, bought from a fellow collector based in Sweden, many years ago.

 

Stay safe

Richard

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always assembled the non hole pilots the old fashioned way. Wipe off any excess oils and having some patience, it always

assembles. As a precaution, always wear eye protection and keep your mouth closed :-)

Darryl

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the advice. Thanks I got it in, but it was a struggle, a third hand would of helped. I did use a stick to hold the bolt back a little, see pic, but I still had to move the bolt back further by hand to get the spring in. Happy Trails.

post-1716-0-97679300-1485115564_thumb.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I had a 21/28 Navy that had the buffer rod sans hole I took a small vicegrip type tool and ground the head to be more "needle nosed" so that it was narrow enough to fit into the bolt channel when gripped onto the rod. The tool jaws were also taped to prevent scraping the rod. Push the spring in to compress it tight and leave an uncompressed section right at the end to clamp the vicegrip on. Make sure you have the vicegrip handles opposite the flat on the buffer rod disc. Insert the spring into the bolt same as if you had the spring hold tool (or nail) through the hole in the rod on rods so configured; only instead of pulling out the tool or nail, you release the vicegrip. Cheap, easy and quick to make; simple, easy, and quick to use.

 

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

ETA: I did eventually get a WWII rod with the hole as others have suggested doing. At the same time I replaced the buffer from the old fiber material to urethane, as I had read that the fiber disc might disintegrate.

Edited by Merry Ploughboy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Richard,

I have never seen any documenation discussing the Colt or early Savage era Model of 1928 buffer pilots and how a hole in the shaft would make disassembly/assembly easier. I do know the US military acquired over 1700 Colt era Thompsons starting with the US Marines in 1926 and ending with the June 30, 1939 order for 951 guns. I know the US Navy acquired some of these guns and believe the 951 guns ordered in 1939 were for the US Army. Early orders were for the Model of 1921 Thompson guns but many of these were later converted to the Model of 1928 configuration when this "slowed down" NAVY model was introduced. I believe all US military orders after 1928 were for the Model of 1928. I do not recall ever seeing anything that indicated the US military was having a problem with the no-hole 1928 buffer pilot.

 

I do not believe the British military had much experience with the Thompson gun other than the captured IRA Thompsons and some testing of guns supplied by Auto-Ordnance over the years. The IRA Thompsons were all Model of 1921's. I would guess the six sample guns I referenced on page 9 of my book were the first Thompson guns placed in actual service by the British military. It is my belief these were probably Model of 1921's obtained commercially.

 

Given the scarcity of the Savage made 1928 no-hole buffer pilots and how this early buffer pilot has only been found in very early Savage guns I would assume the change was made very early in production. The documentation you reference is dated in mid-1941, well after the buffer pilot with a hole became standard at Savage Arms. Given the British military received many of the first Thompson guns manufactured by Savage Arms, it is very possible this became an early training issue and a request was made by the Ministry of Supply (MoS) to modify the buffer pilots by adding a hole in the shaft. AOC would have been only too happy to comply given the British was their main customer in early to mid-1940. The tool described on page 138 (B.E. 9986) is definitely of British design; I know of no tool like this used or issued by the US military (other than a nail). The creation of this tool is another possible indication the hole modification may have been proposed by the British. Perhaps something will turn up in the future that will solve this mystery. Great question.

 

All good stuff!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Merry, any buffer is liable to disintegrate after enough load cycles.

 

The original buffer is a type of plastic called phenolic resin and it's a very hard and tough material.

 

It's not that great of a cushion for the impact of the bolt because it's so hard, but it's still about 70 times "softer" than using no buffer.

 

They doubtlessly used it because it was the only commercially available plastic in 1921.

 

The new clear yellow urethane buffers are about 35 times "softer" than the resin washer, so they will do a much better job of cushioning the impact than the original washer.

 

The neoprene is a type of rubber and it's probably going to be a lot more prone to cracking than the phenolic washer.

 

The point being that the neoprene is way better of a shock absorber but keep an eye on it because it will wear out sooner.

Edited by buzz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Richard,

I have never seen any documenation discussing the Colt or early Savage era Model of 1928 buffer pilots and how a hole in the shaft would make disassembly/assembly easier. I do know the US military acquired over 1700 Colt era Thompsons starting with the US Marines in 1926 and ending with the June 30, 1939 order for 951 guns. I know the US Navy acquired some of these guns and believe the 951 guns ordered in 1939 were for the US Army. Early orders were for the Model of 1921 Thompson guns but many of these were later converted to the Model of 1928 configuration when this "slowed down" NAVY model was introduced. I believe all US military orders after 1928 were for the Model of 1928. I do not recall ever seeing anything that indicated the US military was having a problem with the no-hole 1928 buffer pilot.

 

I do not believe the British military had much experience with the Thompson gun other than the captured IRA Thompsons and some testing of guns supplied by Auto-Ordnance over the years. The IRA Thompsons were all Model of 1921's. I would guess the six sample guns I referenced on page 9 of my book were the first Thompson guns placed in actual service by the British military. It is my belief these were probably Model of 1921's obtained commercially.

 

Given the scarcity of the Savage made 1928 no-hole buffer pilots and how this early buffer pilot has only been found in very early Savage guns I would assume the change was made very early in production. The documentation you reference is dated in mid-1941, well after the buffer pilot with a hole became standard at Savage Arms. Given the British military received many of the first Thompson guns manufactured by Savage Arms, it is very possible this became an early training issue and a request was made by the Ministry of Supply (MoS) to modify the buffer pilots by adding a hole in the shaft. AOC would have been only too happy to comply given the British was their main customer in early to mid-1940. The tool described on page 138 (B.E. 9986) is definitely of British design; I know of no tool like this used or issued by the US military (other than a nail). The creation of this tool is another possible indication the hole modification may have been proposed by the British. Perhaps something will turn up in the future that will solve this mystery. Great question.

 

All good stuff!

Tom,

Thanks for that information, very interesting.

 

Stay safe

Richard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...