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Colt 3rd Gen Drum Id - Rki


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I honestly believe looking at Hill's book that I am looking at what is referenced as a Worcester 2nd Generation.

So the more I look at Hill's book the more confused I am.

 

The drum font and spacing wise I am looking at looks to me is more like the Worcester 2nd Generation referenced on page 333 of Hill's book, fig. 366.

 

Looking at the face plates I can NOT note tack welds on fig. 363 & 365 yet I can see tack weld on gijive's photo's and Hill's on the 3rd Generation Worcester fig. 367. Yet Hill's book mentions tack welds.

 

Please someone tell me I am overanalyzing this or something. Unfortunately I do not have Doug's book.

 

 

 

 

 

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Sig,

 

I sent you a private email. I'll forward pictures from Doug's book to you via private email later tonight. The drum you pictured shows no tack welds. The Worcester drums have tack welds. The tack welds are easy to spot despite the rough finish of the drum.

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At the risk of allowing my “techno nerd” side to come out I just have to talk a bit about welding terminology.

 

A “tack” weld is a small weld used to hold parts in position prior to the final welding. The tack weld is normally consumed when the final welds are made.

 

The weld used on drums and most other sheet metal products are known as Resistance or “spot” welds.

 

Techno nerd mode off, thanks for putting up with me!

 

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I apparently have the worcester drum, I saw the picture and thought to myself, "wait a minute, that's what I got! A Colt!" But then I saw the tack welds. Oh well...

Is that drum really worth $1000? If so, I'm still okay with it, as I only paid $60 for it at the Great Western Gun Show in California back in '92! Works great!

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Hi Whiskey Brother, I sold (earlier this year) what I and the buyer believed to be a Worcester L-Type drum, for $1,000. Anything out there is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it and the seller is willing to accept. I am now convinced that what I sold was a Colt L-Type original drum. First, it had the nickel rotor. Second, I don't remember spot welds. Third, there definitely were no 'W.P.S. Co.' markings on any of the parts. As I said before, you live and learn, sometimes. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif Regards, Walter
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Yes indeedy....

It's funny you bring up the worth of things as regards what people are willing to spend, and what the buyer is willing to take. When I found my drum, I was digging through a mound of what looked like junk at a back stall at the "Great Western Gun Show". Towards the bottom I was happy to see the familiar drum shape I had been searching the Great Western Gun show for two days for, without any luck. (I miss those seven miles of tables! A pox on the LA city council http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif ...) I asked the grizzled old proprieter what he would take, and from the sparkle in his eye he probably thought $60 was a hefty price for a "city looking LA area dude" like me. I didn't attempt to haggle, I just forked over 3 twentys before he got his wits about him, and took off with my prize... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Needless to say, I thought it was worth maybe 3 or 4 hundred tops, but I am happy to see that either Clintons gun laws have drove the price way up, or there is still a lot of Thompsons out there with owners demanding drums!

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Whiskey Brother, that was definitely a steal (courtesy of the Clinton gun/magazine ban laws, the very real demand for all original Thompson accessories, and your quick action). As it has been said, "one man's garbage is another's treasure." http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif Regards, Walter
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After reading all of the posts carefully, I dug out my L drum, it has spot welds, a blue rotor, no serial numbers, no comma, no drain slots, and no W.P.S. Co. on it.

From the gist of the conversation I have what I believe to be a Worcester drum. I bought it a few months ago on GunBroker and gave 1,179.00 for it.

 

 

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The original contract Worcester drums don't have any WPS markings on them. The later WWII produced drums have the large WPS letters on the back.

 

There is nothing wrong with the Worcester drums and they function as well as the earlier ones. They are identical to the earlier Colt drums and were contracted to be made for the Colt guns in the 1930's. They are the most common of the New York address drums and command more than the WWII Auto-Ordnance, Bridgeport, CT address drums.

 

They usually sell in the $1,200.00 range.

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I had one of these Drums. Sold it to a fellow by the name of Ralph Weaver in 1992 for $550.00 Though the one that I had was painted black. Must have been done long after it left the factory. Didn't appear original. And it did indeed have a Nickel Rotor. Sorry for any confusion, as I wanted to know what Drum we were trying to figure out. GI pointed the fact out, that the WW2 version did have the WPS markings on the back. Prior to that, they did not...
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Hi all, just to add to the confusion, "I wonder if, over the past 70-80 yrs., individuals, gunsmiths,etc. didn't switch rotors (blue vs. nickel), the way front and back covers on the C and L-Type drums have been noted to have been switched." http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif Regards, Walter
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If only Colt, like P-08 Lugars, had numbered all of its internal parts, barrel, Cutt's, vertical and pistol grip, as well as the rest of the L and C drums over 5000, to match the receiver and frame number. Then we would really see the degree of true "origninality" of the remaining 15,000 TSMG. At least with the numbered drums, one knows what one is getting, even if the rotors are not numbered to match.
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Sig: I sent pictures of your drum plates to Tracie Hill. He identified your drum as a second model of the standard New York address "L" drum manufactured by Worcester Press Stamping Co. Tracie said he could see tack welds in the pictures. See Page 333, figures 365 and 366 of Hill's book. My impression that is was a "plain" Colt L drum is therefore incorrect. I yield to Tracie's expert opinion.
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Hawksnest,

 

I certainly wouldn't dispute Tracie Hill's expert opinion, however, the drum originally pictured by Sig doesn't appear to me to have any spot welds. The font spacing and punctuation is also identical to the unnumbered Colt drum pictured in Doug Richardson's Drum book. Now, I know that Mr. Richardson and Mr. Hill disagree on some aspects of Thompson minutiae, so there is obviolusly a difference of opinion.

 

Is it possible the seller doctored the photo to remove the spot welds?, I don't know, but it was suggected to the potential buyer to personally inspect the merchandise before buying it or having an inspection period. I believe he intended to do that.

 

The drum pictured appeared to have the proper finish, but only a personal inspection would satisfy that question. I don't have Tracie's book handy, but I believe he pictures the Colt drums as having the comma after the New York address and the Worcester's as not having it. Could you verify that for me? Maybe if someone has a copy of Cox's book, they could check that.

 

I will review the two books mentioned later this evening. If I was incorrect in my opinion on the drum, I certainly didn't intend to mislead the buyer, however, I believe if you examine more than one source you will see inconsistencies even among experienced collectors.

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gijive: I could not detect the tack-welds in the picture but Tracie could. Tracie opined the tack-welds would be more noticeable if the pictures were of a better quality. Both the Colt "no" (unnumbered) rear plate, as shown in figure 362 and the second model Worcester, as shown in figure 366, have a comma after N.Y. The Worcester first model does not have the comma. IMHO, if there are tack-welds, then it is a worcester, not a Colt.

I don't have a copy of Doug Richardson's drum book. Please let us know what you think after you have consulted both books. I think the tack-welds are the key.

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Hawksnest, gijive, et. al., I really appreciate you guys going the extra mile to figure this out. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/smile.gif However, personally, I wouldn't mind owning any Colt or Worcester (hell, even any WWII production) drums, since they all function very well (or can be made to) and are of historical value. That being said, it is still desirable to know exactly what one has or is purchasing. Well, that's my two cents. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/cool.gif Regards, Walter
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Sig,

 

For the last two hours I've studied all the pictures in the three reference books I have with closeups of drums: The Thompson Submachine Gun by Roger Cox; Thompson: The American Legend by Tracie Hill and Thompson Submachine Gun Drum Magazines by Douglas W. Richardson.

 

I sincerely hope the authors won't mind me posting photographs from their publications in the interest of clarifying the origin of the drum you originally pictured. If I get an email about copyright violations, I'll have to take the pictures down.

 

Unfortunately, I studied the original picture you sent and now see what may be spot welds on the back cover slide, as Tracie Hill indicates. I did not notice these in the original review of the pictures and if they are in fact welds, they are not as noticeable as the welds on my Worcester drum that was pictured earlier. This would lead me to believe that the drum you pictured has been refinished, making the welds harder to spot. See redited photo below:

 

http://members.aol.com/gijive/UnkDrum.jpg

 

The font spacing and comma after New York, N.Y., is also the same as a New York drum pictured in Roger Cox's early work on page 30. See photos below:

 

http://members.aol.com/gijive/CoxDrum1.jpg

http://members.aol.com/gijive/CoxDrum2.jpg

 

Although, Cox's book is considered somewhat dated, he states on page 29:

 

"The third production was the standard and most common drum of the "New York" variety. This drum has the same markings as the blank number drum, but no place for a number. These drums were made by the Worcester Pressed Steel Co., Worcester, Massachusetts, for Auto Ordnance."

 

No spot welds are evident on the New York drum pictured in Cox's book.

 

In Hill's book, on page 331 in Figure 362, he pictures what is described as the slide plates on a Colt-produced "NO. Number "L" drum. See photos below:

 

http://members.aol.com/gijive/HillDrum1a.jpg

http://members.aol.com/gijive/HillDrum1b.jpg

 

The first picture, showing the front slide plate, has identical font spacing to the Worcester drum I originally posted. Notice the "S" in Submachine Gun lining up under the "I" in Magazine. The picture also shows what looks to be a spot weld on the face plate in an identical location to the one I pictured. I wonder if the pictures were inadvertently placed on the wrong pages by the publisher?

 

On page 332, Figure 364, are two pictures of slide plates of what is described as the first model Worcester Press "L" drum. The front slide plate font spacing is identical to the drum Sig pictured, but the back plate pictured is identical to the Worcester drum I pictured, including the lack of a comma after New York, N.Y. See pictures below:

 

http://members.aol.com/gijive/HillDrum.jpg

 

This is what makes me believe that the pictures may have been inadvertently placed on the wrong pages.

 

The slide markings pictured on page 333, Figure 366, in Hill's book are also the same as the drum you pictured, including the comma on the back plate. Hill refers to this as a second model Worcester drum. It seems strange to me that a first model Worcester, like the one I pictured, would not have the comma; but then the second model back slide would return to the comma like the earlier Colt drums.

 

Doug Richardson's drum book shows an identical photo of what is described as a Colt-produced New York "L" drum with identical markings to the drum Sig inquired on. The exception is the spot welds.

 

So Sig, you can see that there is disagreement among possible manufacturer's and slight discrepancies in markings, among the most well-known Thompson authors.

 

I guess you'll have to examine the drum closely when you get it and determine if there are spot welds and if it has been refinished. So, we are right back where we started, it's either a late Colt produced drum or a Worcester drum. Maybe no one will ever know for sure who produced which model for Auto Ordnance. Sorry we couldn't be of more help, but either one is collectible.

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Sorry you could not been of more help? Your kidding right??

You guys have been a ton of help. Thanks really.

We all obviously noted clear differences between authors.

The real question is are there spot welds and is it refinished possibly hiding any?

At this point without the item directly in my hands I can not say for sure.

 

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