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1921ac Unfired Value?


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I am considering a 1921AC that appears to be completely new unfired condition. Honest, this one is a real show stopper. The owner bought it in the 60's and says he never fired it. The only two chinks in the armor are:

 

1. The furniture was replaced when he bought it in the '60's with a gorgeous set of custom made wood. He says he has the original wood as well. and

 

2. The Thompson directory for this serial number only has one note, apparently from a SGN ad run in 1994 that apparently referring to it being reblued.

 

If this is original blue, could it be worth the $30k asking price. If a perfect reblue job, how much does that depreciate its value?

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I looked over both of those guns today. It was a reblue as far as I could tell. It makes me wonder why it would be in a SGN ad if the same guy had owned it for 40 years. (I looked them up in Gordon's book too). The wood was cheesey looking. He also said that the cases were from the 60's which just didn't look right. They didn't look old enough. The mags were military as were the drums. It had that buffed look below the serial number. I don't think it was because it was because it was because the owner was trying to make it look nice. Both the Thompsons were reblues, had other internals in them, etc.

 

I'd pass on them at the $30k asking.

 

What does rebluing do to the value of one? It can be originial ONCE. I'd say cut the value 30-50%. Guns are worth maybe $20k.

 

Mark H

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gandolf,

There really is no such thing as a brand new unfired Colt 1921 TSMG. There are many examples of 1921/28 reblued with replacement wood that the seller says has been tucked away since the 1960's and is offered as "new". If it could be proved that there existed such a "new" Colt TSMG, then it would sell for over $50K.

 

P51 is right about how the value plummets when a Colt TSMG has been reblued. But scratches, nicks, pitting and such will always be present on the metal. Why would a fine example of an unfired, craddled TSMG need rebluing anyway? As the song says, "Walk Away Renee".

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Thanks for the friendly advice. I did walk away and bought a shooter instead. Sig, it was at a gun show, not in SGN.

 

Sometime next year I would like to buy a Thompson that would be as close to 100% as possible for investment. Any suggestions on an honest dealer that specializes in top shelf Thompsons would be appreciated.

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Just ask Aurthur, he knows where all the (overpriced) Colt Thompsons are. He is the master of (Colt) "Value".

 

QUOTE
There really is no such thing as a brand new unfired Colt 1921 TSMG.

 

Since Aurthur has personally inspected all 15,000 Colt Thompsons, this is how he knows this!

 

QUOTE
a "new" Colt TSMG, would sell for over $50K.

 

Refer to the first quote.

 

Colts bring between 15-25K. Those on the upper end are near perfect guns and have tons of accessories.

 

Consider a Savage 1928. They were built on the same machines as the Colts, just by different people 20 years later. Colt did not design the Thompson, they just build the gun.

 

An NFA weapon is always an investment. Thompson SMG's are the highest priced, most collectable SMGs out there. All of them. 30K is WAY ahead of the market, one day they will certainly be worth that, but not right now. An original refinished gun of any kind decreases the value.

 

You are better off with the shooter that you bought. You can't fire a 99% gun without the possibility of value loss. You can shoot yours and still sell it for more than you paid in less than a years time.

 

IMHO you should never buy a gun you can't shoot.

 

John Jr

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I agree that you should never buy a gun you wouldn't shoot. That is just my personal preference. If I had about $100,000 to burn, maybe I would stash a few 21AC's away without firing them.

 

I think the better way to go is to look for a "war baby" that has some history. These are hard to find also.

 

I think the only "unfired" Thompson (of any manufacturer) is going to be a West Hurley (maybe), and they are going fast, but who knows what's in "the attic" somewhere. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif

 

I would just settle for any Thompson.

 

Just my $.02 worth.

 

Norm

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Well to confound all the experts . . .

 

A Class 3 dealer and Thompson collector I know was offered a NIB Thompson 3 years. That's a NIB 1921AC Thompson. It was still in the original box which in turn was still in the box from a Chicago department store with the shipping info to the first buyer on it. The gun had never been fired and the box was in good condition.

 

The asking price in 1999 was $150,000. It was bought soon after by a different collector, probably never to be seen again.

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Philasteen,

 

With all due respect, your post certainly makes for a good story, but I frankly find it hard to believe. It sounds like the kind of story that would be passed along at a gun show. True, the original guns could have been shipped to certain retail outlets during the early sales in the 1920's, but it seems unlikely to me that a gun that was never taken out of the box would have been registered in the NFA registry after 1934. Therefore, if it wasn't registered it couldn't have been legally transferred in 1999. Of course, I am assuming certain facts here, but until I saw pictures of the gun or some documentation that it really existed, I don't think I would accept your story as gospel.

 

Most of those kinds of stories always have the same scenario, the guy passed on it, someone else got it and it will probably never be seen again. Pretty convenient way to explain any lack of documentation. I would have to think that the late J. Curtis Earl or Roger Cox would have written or heard about such a gun during their heyday as Thompson collectors and sellers thirty some years ago.

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QUOTE
Since Aurthur has personally inspected all 15,000 Colt Thompsons, this is how he knows this!

 

 

What exactly does this mean ? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/unsure.gif

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Those guns were 12615 and 6179, both were in Gordon' s serial number book as for sale in 1994 in Shotgun News (going from memory, 6179 said reblued and refinshed wood in the book). The owner told me he owned BOTH guns since the mid 60's. It just doesn't figure that BOTH were listed for sale. I tend to not believe him. He MAY have sold them. BUT I DOUBT they were for $30k each. They were not that nice.

 

Think about it for a minute, it makes sense. Gordon has nothing to gain, I do trust his book.

 

Mark H

 

 

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These guns sound like the same ones at the SAR show and the Louisville show a few months ago. The owner is Jim Streeter? If so, you can buy them a hell of a lot cheaper then $30k. He only wanted $20k for them in Louisville. He also has alot of BS about the guns. I talked to him 2x at the Louisville show and he told me a couple different stories about the guns. He also had a very mixed up Colt 1928 with various parts attached. I don't remember all the detail but it was only a $8000 gun. Looked to me, and a editor of a popular mg magazine, to either be a made up reciever or a abortion that lived. This guy also was carrying the Colt around at Knob Creek last show with a "C" drum attached. I know some Thompson people are very eccentric, and know it alls, but this dude was in the top few. But he was pleasant to me. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/dry.gif
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It is Street not Streeter. I was thinking of somebody else. I can't find his card I have but that is him. I was thinking more about 70+. Looked bad last time I talked to him.

My fault on the name thing. Now I'm 42 I can't remember shit any more! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/laugh.gif

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That's the guy. I do believe that he is pretty old, probably in his 70's. He said he has a bad heart. Jim Street is the name and he was at the SAR show.

 

He has lots of stories about his "one of a kind" guns. Funny thing is that he will tell you the same stories over-and-over again, even if you are still standing at his table. It's as if he doesn't remember that you are the same person or that he just told you the story. He lives with a chimp that he has had for 35 years. He obviously has a fair amount of money and buys lots of toys. He primary passion is wooden boats. He also collects old cars. I did seen a comment on the internet from a Google search that he bought the convertable from the tv show 77 Sunset Strip and "trashed it beyond comprehension."

 

Funny guy. Anyway, he says he sold the two Thompsons so it will be interesting to see if he shows up with them at another show.

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Dang. I was guessing at his age. Never met him, but bought an unissued transferable AR10 from him almost 10 years ago. At the time it was the cheapest one out there. He was with Interarms in their hey day from what I understand. He had a lot of neat pieces for sale when I bought from him. Wish I had bought more from him.
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QUOTE (gijive @ Dec 7 2003, 08:23 AM)
Philasteen,

With all due respect, your post certainly makes for a good story, but I frankly find it hard to believe. It sounds like the kind of story that would be passed along at a gun show. True, the original guns could have been shipped to certain retail outlets during the early sales in the 1920's, but it seems unlikely to me that a gun that was never taken out of the box would have been registered in the NFA registry after 1934. Therefore, if it wasn't registered it couldn't have been legally transferred in 1999. Of course, I am assuming certain facts here, but until I saw pictures of the gun or some documentation that it really existed, I don't think I would accept your story as gospel.

Most of those kinds of stories always have the same scenario, the guy passed on it, someone else got it and it will probably never be seen again. Pretty convenient way to explain any lack of documentation. I would have to think that the late J. Curtis Earl or Roger Cox would have written or heard about such a gun during their heyday as Thompson collectors and sellers thirty some years ago.

i have reason to suspect the story checks out -- the class 3 dealer in question was selling a number of MGs at really good prices to try and raise the money to buy the 21AC in question.

 

I should have bought everything he offered me and the unfired 21AC -- I'd have made out like a bandit. The sales list included an M60D, MG-42, 2 other 21ACs, a grease gun and more.

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Philasteen,

It does seem logical that a new in the shipping box Colt TSMG would bring $150K in 1999, considering that someone paid $100K for the "Midas Touch" TSMG in 2003, and an authenticated new TSMG is worth way more that a Curtis Earl creation. However, it does seem odd that the gun press did not follow up on this treasure and do an article and photo layout. I mean this would be an incredible find that would answer many questions about how an untouched, unfired TSMG would look like as far as the bluing, and color of wood. This would be the touchstone for all Colt's to be measured by. Perhaps the buyer did not want to take the chance that the publicity might attract experts who would challenge the authenticity of the seller's claim. So until this mystery gun comes out from the shadows, it just reads like an Arthur C. Clark short story.

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The Midas didn't sell for $100,000, only $85,000. Here is the inside story and its a keeper.

 

I can say I was in on the Midas Gun a few months back and it was down to me and another individual. The final selling price on it was $85,000.

 

The gun was offered through a broker who is now deceased. He was contacted by the owner (an EX CIA operative (aren't they all??)) to sell the gun. The gun had to sell immediately.

 

It was sold to another person (Mr Smith).

 

At the same time Mr. Smith who was interested in the gun was having some real "significant other" problems when she found out they were going to have to cash in some investments to pay for it and pay some taxes on them.

 

Then I said I'd take it. So it was mine. I did "have" it for a while, but there was too much "mystery" about who the actual owner of the gun was and where it was, etc, and I backed out of the deal. Before a check was written. This was one of the very few guns deals I have ever backed out of in 25 years.

 

Mr. Smith contacted me directly to sell me the gun. He sent me a package with a video, photographs, etc of it, I was impressed and told me it was a million dollar gun; said I could have it for $125,000 and not to tell the broker. However, Mr. Smith did not own the gun nor did he have permission to sell it.

 

The Broker contacted me and I was encouraged to make a lower offer than $85,000 and I was hesitant and considering making my own gold filled Thompson for fraction of the cost. I still declined. A few days later the Broker called and asked if Mr. Smith had contacted me I told him he had and he was miffed that Mr. Smith would try and circumvent him. Ultimately, Mr. Smith came up with the full $85,000 and took the gun.

 

I'm sure in its own way its worth it. It was a one of a kind gun and has some significant history (Hucksterism??) to it.

 

So thats the MIDAS Story from the inside.

 

Moral of the story -> Tell the truth, don't circumvent the brokers, and keep secrets (I didn't tell you who the owner of the Midas was or who Mr. Smith is)

 

Mark H

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