Crescent Firearms No 60 Empire Hammerless Shotgun Stolen By Dillinger

[Tatter]

Hi Everyone, I am new to these forums, and found you because I am trying to determine provenance on a shotgun I recently came across that may have belonged to Dillinger or one of his gang. I suppose I should start with the story I was told that leads me to believe this may be a legitimate claim.

The shotgun owner's Grandfather was a rancher and Sheriff in Texas. In the early 1900s his family moved from Texas to New Mexico and then to Tucson AZ. One of the family friends that came with him was Ed Echols. Ed Echols would later go on to be not only a rodeo champion, but also the Sheriff of Pima County. When the fire at Hotel Congress broke out, and the firemen retrieved the luggage Clark and Makley left behind they seized several guns. Listed in the report is 3 Thomspons, 2 Winchesters, Bulletproof Vests and some cash. However, Dillinger had been staying at 927 N second Avenue in Tucson where there were certainly more firearms, and when looking at old photographs of the police after the arrest you can see they are holding more than just the listed weapons. Ed Echols, being the Sheriff and playing some role in the capture and holding of the dillinger gang apparently confiscated a watch, diamond ring, and this No 60 Empire Hammerless Shotgun which stayed in his possession. As Echols aged and had no one to pass these items along to, he gave them to his lifelong friend, the grandfather of the gentleman who showed me this gun. These items have since stayed in his family and were passed down to his father and then to him and his brother. This gentleman received the shotgun and watch, while his brother received the ring.

What makes the story really interesting is the gun itself (of which I have uploaded several pictures). There is a serial number, Arsenal Number, and name carved into the side of the gun (W.T. or W.J. Rawlin or Rawlins). As I understand it, crescent firearms only made shotguns up until the 30s-40s and the serial number places the guns manufacture date around 1932 (this information coming from him). A check with the Tucson Police Department and PIma County Sheriffs office shows that the gun did not come from them. The arsenal number, 1879, suggests that this shotgun did come from a police station/arsenal somewhere. This leads me to believe the gun may have come from the Auburn or Peru, IN robberies where I believe at least a few shotguns were stolen. An initial attempt to contact the Peru IN police department only resulted in a story about how the robbery was performed and no real information about the items stolen.

What I would like to do is determine whether or not this was a gun stolen by or used by the Dillinger gang. I have no experience in determining with proof the provenance of a firearm, and would like to ask for any help you all can provide. I am also wondering if it can be proven that this was Dillinger's or a members shotgun and it was stolen from a police arsenal, is it now legal to buy/sell?

**EDIT** I have several more photos of the gun I would like to add, but it seems I have reached my size limit. Is there anyway I can add more photos?

Edited February 24, 2013 by Tatter

[ineverlistentoFM]

neat story. i hope you find what you are looking for!

[OCM]

I certainly can't find any reference to those names you have and John Dillinger. John Belton was the Sheriff of Pima County in 1934, and the names don't appear with the list of Tucson police officers involved in the capture in Tucson either ? Your history is a wee bit off but nothing to offset anything here on your search .

Unfortunately, at least I don't recall, that specific shotgun listed in the Peru & Auburn inventory either.

This information has been recorded in the books on Dillinger and is in the FBI reports that are all available to the public, so it's not just my feeble old mind.

Is it legal to buy & sell, probably, like any other gun depending on your State laws etc.

I have sent your query to some other historians I know, see if they come up with something different.

 

Good luck with it, if I hear anything more, I'll post it.

 

OCM

[Tatter]

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<p>I certainly can't find any reference to those names you have and John Dillinger. John Belton was the Sheriff of Pima County in 1934, and the names don't appear with the list of Tucson police officers involved in the capture in Tucson either ? Your history is a wee bit off but nothing to offset anything here on your search .</p>

<p>Unfortunately, at least I don't recall, that specific shotgun listed in the Peru & Auburn inventory either.</p>

<p>This information has been recorded in the books on Dillinger and is in the FBI reports that are all available to the public, so it's not just my feeble old mind.</p>

<p>Is it legal to buy & sell, probably, like any other gun depending on your State laws etc. </p>

<p>I have sent your query to some other historians I know, see if they come up with something different.</p>

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<p>Good luck with it, if I hear anything more, I'll post it. </p>

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<p>OCM</p>

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<p>Thanks very much for the response! I know you know the subject and appreciate the information! After further investigation about Ed Echols, you are of course correct, John Belton was sheriff when Dillinger was captured, and Echols was elected Sheriff in 1937. This part of the gentleman's story was the most unclear to me. While Echols would have been active in the department at the time, this makes it seem unlikely that he would have had access to Dillinger and his belongings. If I am able to contact the gentleman again, I will have to try and clear this up a bit more</p>

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<p>I also noticed that in the reports of the Tucson arrests this type of shotgun is not listed. I have not seen the reports about Peru, but to hear you say they are not listed there either is a little disheartening. However, my first attempt to contact Peru was via email and proved to be unfruitful. I have since called and spoken with an officer there who said he would speak with the Chief about accessing the stole guns records and seeing if a W.T. or W.J Rawlins ever worked there. I expected to hear back today, but unfortunately did not.</p>

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<p>So far, the search is not looking promising, but you never know! I really appreciate you contacting the historians you know and eagerly await an update be it positive or negative!</p>

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<p>Thanks again!</p>

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<p>**Edit** When I try to access the Dillinger FBI case files online I keep getting a "this page does not exist" error, can you point me in the right direction? Also, would it be possible that the firearms listed in the FBI report would not contain all of the Tucson weapons because it was prior to him crossing state lines in the police vehicle? I found this quote from the Pima County Sheriff's office History of keeping the peace "Confiscated during the arrest were around 40 suitcases, bags, sacks, boxes and trunks. Hidden within the luggage was $36,000 in bills ranging from $50 to $1,000 along with $12,000 worth of set and unset diamonds. Also, law enforcement officers were amazed to have found the gang's arsenal of 80-odd weapons, including 4 bullet proof vests, submachine guns, high-powered rifles, sawed off shotguns, and at least one variety of revolver and automatic then made." I have not been able to find the model of shotgun they refer to, would you happen to have that information?</p>

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**Edit 2** I don't know what I did to the formatting, sorry!

Edited February 27, 2013 by Tatter

[OCM]

There is no police records of the items taken at the dillinger arrest, they were stolen years ago. Only a couple hand scribbled notes from Frank Eyman.

The one I had came with the Racine money bag found with the Pierpont things in the 34 Buick. Just lists Thompsons, 45s, handcuffs, blackjack and money, that's it. I think he did this for people. It also contained a very detailed 2 page letter about Makley & Pierpont and thier time in Tucson, from the original owner of the money bag who ran around with them, no mention of guns.

A lot of the items were sold to the locals in 1936 at a police auction, including the cars, with the exception of the 34 Dillinger Hudson that was given to his lawyer, Rose Silver. That list I've never seen, if it does still exist.

The Tucson guns have been discussed here on the forum in fairly good detail, do a search.

Most the history of the Dillinger guns are lost at the police stations, only for the reason that to much time has gone by, and 3 generations have passed by.

I don't think you will find much there, unless you have some pretty good credentials.

I don't know how one gets into the files, I was working with retired FBI Agent Larry Wack on this.

The shotgun pictured was IDed by one or two of the members here, I can't remember what it was now, of course. David knows. It's on the left here.

 

Opps, hit the damn send button ...

 

I think this is about as good as I can do. I wouldn't give up research, stuff does surprise me and turn up sometimes.

 

OCM

Edited March 10, 2013 by OCM

[Allen]

I've been asked to pick this research up.

 

Assuming there are no records on this particular firearm available, I'm thinking if perhaps the W.T. Rawlin name can be traced to an officer employed in Auburn or Peru that might at least give some credence to the story. Except, I'm not sure how to verify such information. Does anyone here know which city/county department might store such records? The local police departments themselves? Also, how do you think records from the 30s are actually stored, if at all?

[OCM]

If you think this stuff came from Peru or Auburn, some things you might do:

 

Search newspapers from that period, for each town. I've spent hours/days in libraries going thru the old microfilms. See if you can find a police report.

Search the cemetery records- Myself & Rick Mattix found Lloyd Barker's ( of Ma Barker fame) grave in Brighton, Co, an unmarked grave

See if there is a police historian at the PD.

Visit the town's library.

Find the town's historian. Usually each town has a personal historian.

 

This is some of the stuff I used to do and more.

Records from the 30s were on paper, most gone unless you get lucky.

 

Good luck again.