The Nelson Thompson #5487

[historicalgmen]

Afternoon folks, hope everyone is doing well. Before I go any further on this topic, bear in mind that I'm aware of a prior discussion on this forum regarding this Thompson and frankly, I don't recall if I spoke to Sandy or not at the time. I now again recently tried following that discussion but ended up with a lot of questions ...or maybe confusion....as to who exactly had what with regard to any historical evidence from FBI files, FOIA material and such. I also admittedly am in the dark with regard to the answers to some of my own questions about this topic merely from a former investigator standpoint which I'll mention herein.

 

During an examination of documents this week on a minor Nelson matter for someone, I ran across what I believe to be 4 relevant documents from files I have that pertain to Thompson #5487, the obtaining of it, and apparent shipment of it by Lebman to the hands of Tommy Carrol, Nelson et al in Minneapolis, MN. and the delivery to the Bennett residence there.

 

Not knowing "who has what" on this Thompson, and circumstances surrounding it, I wanted to make these documents available here to those who might need them or want to review them. If this info is already out there, along with these docs., then simply disregard it all. Especially if the owner and everyone is satisfied about the historical end of things with #5487. (I note strongly that I do not know all the facts already acummulated by others here)

 

My arm chair exam (and that's all it is) of the initial facts surrounding #5487 is that there appears no question that it was obtained by Simon Silva in El Paso, sold with several others to Stockmeyer and then sold to Lebman for shipment to the Bennett residence in MP., Minn. where Carroll, Nelson et al were in and out of. You'll see clearly #5487 mentioned in the longer document regarding statements from Stockmeyer, Silva et al. It's hard to read but it's there and I've circled it in purple. I also have added a few of my own notes to these various docs. (see the doc. "Lebman 5487....")

 

Lebman appears evasive in his signed statement about Stockmeyer and Silva but as you'll see, "everyone gives up the other guy" as you move along.

 

I do have a couple of questions and observations for some "outloud thinking" I'm doing:

 

1. It is evident at one point that a Thompson is seized by locals during an attempt to arrest Carroll at the Bennett house. Does anyone know the identity of that Thompson?

 

2. #4587 is shipped by Lebman along with what appears to be 4 other Thompsons, namely 4141 and 3 of which I cannot discern the numbers because the copy is so bad. Has anyone ever determined what happened to these other Thompsons? (see doc. "Lebman 5487)

 

Anyhow folks, here are the 4 docs that I think are relevant to the #4587 question. BTW, I do not have any information that 4587 was ever in possession of the FBI at any time. Enjoy the read.....these are somewhat difficult to make out in some instances....and maybe this "stuff" will assist someone.....I hope anyhow!

 

Note: I just discovered that Lebman's statement is too large to upload. Hopefully the other 3 here will suffice for now anyhow. Suffice it to say that in essence, Lebman's admissions are somewhat corrorborated by Stockmeyer and Silva and/or vice versa.

 

Cheers

Larry Wack

FBI (Ret.) '68-'03

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lebman 5487 et al.pdf

joe bennett.pdf

Bennett shipments.pdf

[OCM]

Hey Larry-

You just forgot, you dug this stuff years ago when we did the year long hunt for all the Dillinger Thompsons. The two Nelson Little Bo guns.

However this was way before Colt Chopper found the Nelson gun . It was in the files , but we weren't looking for that at the time.

Good you could bring it out to see here.

Said this many times before but if anyone on this Outlaw forum hasn't visited Larry's FBI site, you certainly are missing a lot !! It's the best one on the Internet. Has tons of stuff on Dillinger, Nelson, Barker on & on.

 

OCM

[historicalgmen]

Well Sandy, as you know, it's often said that "the mind is the 2nd thing to go!"

[OCM]

You & I have known each other for some time on a personal basis- nuff said on that fact.

 

You're a retired BATF guy, right ? Emphasis on the A - correct ?

 

I've forgot already

Edited March 10, 2017 by OCM

[Colt Chopper]

Larry, Thank you for posting this. I believe #6141 is the the Thompson that was sold to the Knickerbocker Club, given to Sheriff Armstrong who sold to Stockmeyer. This and 6315 were the first two sold to Stockmeyer in October 1933.

 

Two of the other three as you mentioned are very blurey. 1703 or 1709 maybe on the first one, the second I'm guessing is 7579 as it was originally shipped and sold along with 5487 to Colonel Boldilla of the Mexican Army, if I remember right.

 

I had not seen the postal shipping record, this is good stuff !!!

 

I will print to go in the scrap book with the other documents.

 

Thanks Much, Jack

[historicalgmen]

My Lord Jonesy, do you see the initials BATF under my name on the first post? I love the guys I worked with there but really.....

 

Jack, FYI, a couple of docs on 6141 Thompson in the event they are of any assist. As you may, may not be aware, there was a mistake in the initial exam of this Thompson, i. e. that the serial # was 6146. This was corrected to 6141

 

larry

NOT BATF....

 

 

error:thompson trace 6146, 6141.pdf

[HANS]

Larry, this runs right into my own research trying to track any and all gangster guns of the era.

 

1. It is evident at one point that a Thompson is seized by locals during an attempt to arrest Carroll at the Bennett house. Does anyone know the identity of that Thompson?

 

2. #4587 is shipped by Lebman along with what appears to be 4 other Thompsons, namely 4141 and 3 of which I cannot discern the numbers because the copy is so bad. Has anyone ever determined what happened to these other Thompsons? (see doc. "Lebman 5487)

 

Anyhow folks, here are the 4 docs that I think are relevant to the #4587 question. BTW, I do not have any information that 4587 was ever in possession of the FBI at any time. Enjoy the read.....these are somewhat difficult to make out in some instances....and maybe this "stuff" will assist someone.....I hope anyhow!

 

1. The Carroll gun has not been IDed. I reached out to the Waterloo PD last year but they didn't answer. Perhaps one of you chaps with better credentials than "foreign gangster history enthusiast" or better connections in law enforcement circles can get more out of them.

 

2. From my reading of the FBI files, Lebman shipped #1709, #5487, #6141, #6315, and #7579 in the fall of 1933, although #1709 may have been #1703 instead (the online copy is terrible). Only #6141 and #6315 have appeared again to my knowledge, both in Little Bohemia. I believe one of the three others was captured with Carroll in Waterloo, one was found in the car of van Meter in St Paul. The third MIGHT have been the one used by Gillis at Barrington (note that Herigstad claims Gillis used #2179 at Barrington, but cites no evidence for that). That, of course, could have been #5487, which makes the find so exiting.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

Could of sworn it was the BATF...

 

Colt Chopper has the most up to date stuff on the Nelson hunt.

 

Hans- The sheriff of Eagle River, Wisconsin, wrote ( the day after the Little Bo attack ) that he took three Thompsons, bunch of ammunition, the three gals captured and the Nelson Buick over to Eagle River for keeping. This was a UPI story published in the paper, I think that afternoon, with a fresh interview with Sheriff Thomas McGregor of Eagle River, who showed up at Little Bo with a posse of about 20 men. They thought there were 4 women, but Cherrington had already escaped with Riley. Eagle River probably had the closest jail.

This is work in progress at this point. That's 5 Thompsons, but Pinkston claimed 6, but maybe some confusion in the story with #7387 that was also there. As I recall, #6315 went to the Chicago FBI office, #6141 went to the St Paul FBI office, of course Dillinger took #7387 with him.

 

OCM

[HANS]

ans- The sheriff of Eagle River, Wisconsin, wrote ( the day after the Little Bo attack ) that he took three Thompsons, bunch of ammunition, the three gals captured and the Nelson Buick over to Eagle River for keeping. This was a UPI story published in the paper, I think that afternoon, with a fresh interview with Sheriff Thomas McGregor of Eagle River, who showed up at Little Bo with a posse of about 20 men. They thought there were 4 women, but Cherrington had already escaped with Riley. Eagle River probably had the closest jail.

This is work in progress at this point. That's 5 Thompsons, but Pinkston claimed 6, but maybe some confusion in the story with #7387 that was also there. As I recall, #6315 went to the Chicago FBI office, #6141 went to the St Paul FBI office, of course Dillinger took #7387 with him.

 

 

I've found an article in the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE (24-APR-1934) claiming that they confiscated six machine guns at Little Bohemia ... However, the fact remains that the FBI files list only two by serial number. I find it unlikely that they forgot about one, let alone four. The FBI was pretty cavalier with magazines and accessories, but the gun lists tend to be complete.

 

Also, we have to think of where any additional Thompsons would have come from. If we assume that Carroll and van Meter each lost one of the Lebman guns, and #5487 somehow survived elsewhere (perhaps in a Nelson cache), than all the known Thompsons of the Dillinger and Nelson gangs are accounted for.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[OCM]

Balderdash.

[dalbert]

Larry,

 

If you would send me the file that was too large to upload, I will upload it to our server, and provide a download link.

 

Thanks!

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[historicalgmen]

As most of you know, the "POST - shooting" investigation begun immediately after Bohemia was a colossal undertaking with limited manpower involving extensive amount of post-shooting interviews needed. Also, detailed (and I mean detailed!) comparisons of statements of both FBI, local authority and local citizen interviews. Efforts to pin down "timing," conflicting statements and re-interviews, statements made to the press, examination of raid approaches and any surprises, planning done, commander decisions, mitigating circumstances, refusals to obey orders to halt (in this case) and much more.

 

Anyone here who has spent time in law enforcement knows what a nightmare "post shooting" investigations are, especially one the size of Bohemia which took months to complete. And especially where "friendly fire" may have killed a citizen or officer. Unfortunately, the FBI and local authorities still have these "friendly fire" incidents on a recurring basis across the country and the world as does the military.

 

For those interested who may not have seen it, I'm attaching one document containing the interviews of local sheriffs involved, done by FBI Inspector William Rorer who was present at the battle. There is no doubt from these interviews, and from news accounts etc., that the local citizenry and authorities were "hot under the collar" on the FBI raid, and of course the killing of a local CCC worker. As most know, a petition had been attempted locally, mainly driven by the local press, to hold the FBI accountable and be critical of the way things were handled.

 

Rorer's interviews with the sheriff's, postmaster, and the rest ......done as "cooler heads prevailed" .....reflects some attitude and opinions that involve multiple emotional outbreaks at the time including statements based on hearsay, jurisdictional issues, using good shots and "deer hunters," maybe some bravado, questions on liability issues by the sheriff's at the time of the shooting, and much more.

 

This document gives a "taste" of attitudes and more once the smoke cleared from Bohemia and places some issues in perspective. The red arrows are mine relative to what seems to be some important wording.

 

I thought it interesting at the end of the document that the locals seem to be turning on Emil Wanatka for his involvement and getting too much publicity. I'm wondering out loud if there might be also a trickle of jealousy there that he was going to make money from this incident? (Wanatka in my view was a liar and a fraud at a minimum. This shown when he admitted he super imposed his photo with Dillinger to sell the post cards, and his labeling of items at the Bohemia "museum" as belonging to deceased agent, Carter Baum, which was total fabrication.)

 

Anyhow, I don't have to tell anyone that caution should be taken in applying credibility (emphasis) to news stories at the time and further investigation is usually warranted.

 

Larry Wack

FBI (Ret.)

 

 

Sheriff critics Rorer Invw.pdf

[OCM]

Larry, thanks for the advice.

 

Colt Chopper, Gijive and some others have run down some leads on the above story about Eagle River. Got a nice photo of the three gals being loaded up at the train station in Eagle River, 9:30 am , April 24, to be shipped off to Dane County & Madison, Wisconsin, because Madison cushioned the Federal offices.

The three gals stayed at the Sheriff's home as the jail was a wooden structure, I guess not suit for a couple days stay . CC has talked to the Sheriff there about the jail, it's still there.

CC also reminded me, the Nelson car was a Buick Coupe they hauled ( drove) over to Eagle River. The Buick had the three Thompsons and ammunition in it, according to the Eagle River Undersheriff, Dell McGreagor, the Eagle River Sheriff's son. This is a published account that was made Monday, the afternoon after the Little Bohemia battle, April 23.

For some reason, Purvis wouldn't allow the car or munitions be photographed , causing the locals to draft a petition to have Purvis removed, since he acted without the help of the local Mercer, Wisconsin police. - Haaa, I doubt that was going to happen.

Whole bunch of crap went on at this point, with Sheriff Fred Finn of Madison, The US Attorney for Wisconsin's Western District.... Hoover stepped in , saying Purvis wasn't in charge it was Clegg, to avoid a public hanging of sorts. Nuff of that.

The Buick coupe, the three Thompsons, the ammunition... a mystery we are trying to solve. CC is on that . See what happens.

 

BTW- If anyone has my friend Ellen Poulsen's book, " Don't Call Us Molls" she goes into rather deep details on the three gals caught at the Little Bo battle. I had initially contacted her about the Eagle River story.

 

This area ( Mercer) was known to be a area Al Capone hung out at. As a kid we vacationed every year there, stayed over on Tank Lake. In town there was a white small hotel that you didn't go to, something to do with Ralph Capone. It's also fairly common knowledge, Emil Wanetka had dealings with the underground, going back to the Lake Como area, where Nelson was known to stay. Not real good on this area, but Helmer or Chuck or Mario would know better. As I remember Emil W also had a Little Bohemia place in Chicago too. Lot more going on up there then people know.

This connection was claimed to be one reason the gang was way up there. Some don't buy that, as why would Emil W turn Dillinger & Nelson in. As Larry indicated, Emil was quite the showman, used to scatter shells around the property for guests to find, must be from the battle.......

 

OCM

Edited March 17, 2017 by OCM

[darrylta]

A great document. I'm curious, did the feds employ a Monitor in the ambush?

Darryl

[OCM]

Darryl, I assume you are asking Larry. On my part, I don't know.

 

OCM

[dalbert]

Here is a link to the Lebman file, provided courtesy of "historicalgmen," and hosted on our Machinegunboards.com/Sturmgewehr.com server.

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/MGBoards/lebmansignedstatement.pdf

 

It may take a couple of minutes to download, depending on your bandwidth. The file is 4.6 meg.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[historicalgmen]

Darryl, the research I have on the Monitor reveals that although the Bureau was "pitched" by sales to purchase the weapon in 1933 when they were gearing up, documents show that in all liklihood the first shipments to the field were not until June, 1934, several months after Little Bohemia. I have not found any evidence that any random Monitors were sitting in inventory anywhere in the Field prior to that.

 

Larry

[darrylta]

Larry,

Thanks for the info, I knew about the FBI's 1934 year of purchase, but not the dates.

While we on the topic of Monitors, have you gotten any new info on the FBI's purchased

Monitor cases? Greg Fox is chomping at the bit to build mine. I'm hoping we can get it built

this year. As Trump said, "it's a little complicated"'

Thank you for your service , your great site and keeping history alive.

Darryl