Wanna Bit@h About High Prices?

[Hawkeye_Joe]

>

[Bill-banger]

Saw that. Well, at leas we know what one person thinks a Chinese Thompson is worth now. Of course, what he is offered will more likely determine the real worth.

[DDAYJune6]

so my chinese sks has to be worth at least 50,000 right??

[philasteen]

QUOTE (DDAYJune6 @ Dec 7 2004, 10:45 PM)

so my chinese sks has to be worth at least 50,000 right??

It depends. Are there 3 Chinese SKSs in the country? Is there any collector out there with money who must have one at any price? If so then you might get $80,000 for it.

 

You can bitch about Jerry's price on this gun being high all you want. If you don't like his price, just buy one of the other ones out there for sale.

[Merry Ploughboy]

I'm guessing it's a consignment and Jerry is the middleman. Price being set by the owner and Jerry getting a percentage.

 

 

[Bill in VA]

My .02 on this subject...

Maybe I'm going soft in my "old age," but I've noticed here in the last few months that an awful lot of talk on the board has turned to "Thompson greed" and bashing other folks' asking prices for TSMGs and Thompson parts. Isn't there something more constructive that we can talk about? I hope this isn't a portent of the board's future. We've built this board up into a pretty well-respected asset to the Title II community and now run the risk of cheapening it into some sort of elitist snobbery. Shouldn't we try to rise above this sort of pettiness and whining? Like Merry Ploughboy has said, it's the seller's business what he wants to ask for his wares, and if we don't like it, we should just move on.

[TommyFan]

Well said Bill! Since this sounds like it is from overseas, is it possible this guy means Yen? With current exchange rates, 80,000 yen runs about 18-20,000 US dollars. Our western pc keyboards don't have a "yen" symbol.

[Ron A]

I have purchased thompsons from Jerry in the past and find his prices are top in the market place. He will stand behind a sale. Two years ago I purchased a new WH for $7,500 from Jerry and this year a 21.

 

The price of thompsons like anything else is driven by the market, there are not enought clean thompsons out there. This is a collector market and greed has nothing to do with it.

 

Wake up - you are not going to get a 21 for $10,000 or a WH for $7,500 - the sellers are in business and have a large investment in each gun. They answer the phone many times a day for tire kickers and answer many stupid questions before the sale of a gun.

 

I was able to get a 21 several years back from a PD for two AR15's - last month I received a phone call from a person who knew the PD still has a 21 asking if I thought the PD would take four AR15's.

 

This is like any collector market - demand sets the price. Not greed! No one is going to give you a 21 for four AR15's Its interesting Cox had made the PD an offer just prior to my trade in which he offered less... Thats not to say you might not get a good deal - but it will be rare to find a person who fails to know the value of a thompson.

[leid]

Hi guys,

I was talking to Jerry about his cleaning rods and TSMG ammo yesterday. We talked for quite a while and he got into the story behind the Chinese Thompson. He bought it as part of a large collection. It is not surprising that he is asking top dollar for it now because years ago he himself paid what was considered top dollar for it. After the deal was finalized, the seller informed Jerry that his offer had been twice what had been offered by Nick Tilotta, Bob Landies, and others.

I have never bought a single item for Jerry. The reason being that the nicer items sell before I can get in touch with him. "Supply & Demand 101". And it would be hard to find a nicer fellow to deal with.

Carey

[Bill in VA]

Well, Phil, I'm sorry you feel put-out by my two cents which, for what it's worth, was not specifically directed at you or anyone else. It was simply my observation that there's been an awful lot of bashing (yes, I used the word, and I feel it's apropriate) of folks asking prices by some of us here on the board who disagree with that asking price. You don't have to agree with their asking prices; you don't even have to agree with me. In fact, I don't really care if anyone here agrees with me. But until I'm banned from this board, I'll say pretty much what I damned well please. I never called anyone an unreasonable idiot, nor was it my intention to insult anyone. If anyone was insulted by my post, perhaps they need thicker skin. My point was simply that we should act a bit more mature and not ridicule those whose prices seem at the time to be optimisitc.

Again, my .02

[LIONHART]

Just keeps on getting better and better. I love this board

[rkr]

Bill I agree with your comments. This why I have stoped psoting regularly and looking at this site daily. There is not much meaninful discussion about Thompsons occurring on this board anymore.

[Bill in VA]

Why yank the thread? I see nothing wrong with it. As far as Jerry's Chinese TSMG, did anyone read the article about it in SAR? IIRC, isn't it a hand-made, underground workshop TSMG? If so, what kind of a price do we put on it? Is $80K too much? Not enough? Certainly, it's something for the "Thompson collector who has everything." As far as prices go in general, yes, I think ALL prices are too high. I remember paying $4K for my WH TSMG back in 1999. Now? I'd willingly pay $4K for ANY TSMG. My whole point (the one that seems to have poked the proverbial bear) was only that my opinion is that the board should rise above the pissing and moaning about how much money is too much money. No one says we have to agree with anyone's asking prices, least of all me. If I think something costs too much, I don't buy it. If someone asked me if I thought the price was too much, I'd give them my opinion. But I wouldn't go around trying to flame someone because their proud of their wares.

 

Phil,

No offense was taken, so don't sweat it. As for my use of "buzzwords," well... one man's buzzwords are another man's day-to-day speech. Bash, flame, assault, attack, denounce...it all means the same. I'm a teacher, a writer, an historian, and a Republican. I am who I am and I make no apologies about it. As for my comment about elitist snobbery though, I still stand behind it. I own a West Hurley. It drives me nuts to hear, "if it ain't a Colt it ain't real." BFD. Mine says "Thompson" it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck and is even made of duck parts (except for the goose receiver.) The same thing from those who sneer at another's M11 or Spitfire. I think they're snobs. The way I see it, at least those other guys have a buzz gun. (Let's face it, the C3 community in general has occasionally been labeled "snobbish" by others, and there are a lot of of our community who deservingly are.) I know there are snobbish folks in all groups. I also ride motorcycles. Have since I was 11 or 12 years old. I can't coount how many times good, decent MC guys have been chased off by a few who Harley fanatics. (Yes, I've had Harleys, and both times traded them for Hondas.) OTOH, there are a lot more of our community that are genuinely good folks, regular salt-of-the-earth types. That's one of the things that originally brought me here: the salt-of-the-earth types (and the RKIs.) Don't worry. The whiners and such aren't going to drive me away from the board. I'm just worried that it may intimidate or drive someone new away.

 

EOM

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

What is all the strum und drang over discussing and appraising prices of weapons that are in the public domain? If a seller uses widespread advertising to attempt to sell their wares, then their prices are subject to comment and even ridicule. Unless the seller explains the reason for the parallel universe sum they are attempting to get for their weapon, then naturally they open the door for chortles and double takes.

 

All the seller of the Chinese TSMG had to do was provide his rationale for the $80K figure in the ad. Then at least those who stumble over the ad would understand the context by which the seller arrived at their figure. As it stands, that figure is as arbitrary as $25K for a half-eaten grilled cheese sandwich with the Virgin Marry emblazoned on the toast.

 

[LIONHART]

Now that's something I agree with...

[full auto 45]

I have a half eaten virgin for $20k.........oh wait a minute!

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Mike,

Many Cub Scouts had left over half eaten Brownies.

 

Lionhart,

Something to go with those puddin skins?

[spitfiresubgun]

http://www.pixhost.com/pixg/gotvett/1aspitfirenew-a.jpg

 

Hello Everyone,

Yeah! But, I don't care! I ain't riding the bus. Like Bill in VA who said in the thread Wanna Bit@h About High Prices? "... The same thing from those who sneer at another's M11 or Spitfire. I think they're snobs. The way I see it, at least those other guys have a buzz gun..." Thanks Bill, Any time your down in Hollywood, Florida drop me a line and you can run a few mags through my Spitfire. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif

 

I know this was part of a longer discussion of your firearms lineage as pertaining to brand name equaling value. When I purchase a firearm I usually stick with the top of the line model and maker. Sometimes when an opportunity presents itself you take it!

 

New member Spitfiresubgun, Here to enlighten and dispel some of those hearsay, bashing quotes in your archives as to the history, reliability, and function of the Spitfire and some of it's close cousins. I have placed 13th at Knob Creek in the Subgun Match this past Fall 2004. It has taken a little doing. But who here has a firearm, they never had to tweak now and then.

 

Now I have liked firearms since I was a kid and started buying them myself at 21. While reading Guns & Ammo or Shooting Times, they would have the occasional machinegun test or an article on Knob Creek. I never thought I could afford a machinegun even back then, at those prices. So when I had the chance. I purchased my $300 Spitfire in 1991 from the original owner who had it since new and Amnesty registered. Plus $200 tax and $50 to the dealer. Heck that was a month and a half of Mustang payments. No Problem! At the time it was unfired after the transfer that was not the case.

 

First came the Eagle Carbine an open bolt, was produced in Stratford, Conn in 1966 They were also made in New Haven, Conn. By the Kodiak Manufacturing Company probably with a combined quantity of under 3000 units. I have one in the 17XX range, a New Haven.

 

Spitfire, also open bolt, came along in early 1968 and by the end of '68 they were closed down by the reclassification of the firearm and failure to pay taxes for the "machineguns they already produced" Their total production is around the 4500 unit range mine is in the 24XX range, I have seen some in the 37XX serial number range, But none higher as of yet. The Spitfire is a 95% copy of the Eagle Differences are the vertical fore grip is more refined on the Spitfire. The Spitfire has a separate ejector from the Eagles one piece disconnector/ejector. The front sight is different and the end of the barrel is turned down to accommodate the sight on the Spitfire. And the extractor of the Spitfire mounts flat to the side of the bolt head, where the Eagle wraps around the side in a channel. Both the Eagle and Spitfire borrow from both the Thompson and Greasegun. Mostly in styling, actual parts are the 1927 Butt Stock, M3 magazine. Maybe the guide rods and recoil springs (not confirmed)

 

Apache came at the same time in 1968. But it borrows much more from the Thompson design. Firing from a closed bolt with the square Thompson style receiver assembly and Thompson mags and stocks.

 

Volunteer came next with the Volunteer Carbine, a semi auto open bolt, a 95% copy of the Spitfire. They made changes to the safety (a push pin style) so it couldn't pin the sear and cause a full auto "malfunction" while also welding the bolt heads over so you could not have readily access to the working of the firearm and make it fullauto. Should you need to make repairs to the firearm you are able to open the firearm up make ant repairs and you must reweld the bolt heads closed. I have a letter from the ATF stating that. They used a 1/4 20 pan head slotted bolt so you just cut a slot in it to unscrew it and welded a smooth round bead back to seal it up. Another change was a new grip mount which sleeved over the barrel they simulated cooling vents (with some usefulness) and a Thompson horizontal stock was l mounted to it. Eliminating your burned hand! Number of firearms made I'm not sure mine is in the 8XX range.

 

After that they made the Commando Mk III which copied the Apache's square receiver, but still used the Greasegun mag.

 

Then came the Commando Mk 45 and Mk 9 Still a copy of the Apache now using the Thompson mags a more refined version of itself now using the Thompson pistol grip.

 

After they went out of business the person who owned the rights to the patent James McCown opened Manchester Arms and produced both the Commando Mk45 and Mk9 and also the Commando Pistol a short barreled, no but stock of a gun. These were identical to the Volunteers Commando Mk 45 and Mk 9. Except he went back to using the less expensive and widely available Greasegun mags. Which means he incorporated the designs of the Mk 45 & Mk 9's frame with the Mk III's magazine well.

 

Reliability some have it other you make.

 

In the beginning, I didn't do much but spray and pray shooting which was fine for the semi auto converted to full auto, but the spring steel extractor is the weakest point of the firearm.

So I fashioned one out of the back half of a Colt 1911 extractor. Infact I fashioned a few things to make it run better and accessorize it. Including a Feedramp later models had these, Extended Mag Release, Thompson Horizontal Stock (because the vertical Tommy lookalike was aluminum and a big heat sink to hold o to after a few mags) mounted on an Uzi Ventilated Barrel Shroud ( I have made a few of these for other Spitfire owners that can use either the vertical or horizontal stock) with a weaver rail on top and a Trijicon Reflex Sight. CQB QD Style sling. Shortened the 1927 Thompson Butt Stock

 

That worked for a lot of years till I got into some serious class3 competition shooting and my first trip to Knob Creek in the Fall of 2001. I am not embarrassed to say that that year I placed last in the open bolt category 56th out of 56 extractor problems. So I made a new one and tested it in local competitions and did fine till I went to the Creek in the fall of 2002 placing 53rd out of 54. At least I finished and wasn't last! Still ejector problems. While going through the pole barn looking for some other kind of extractor I can use to suit my needs. I came upon this peculiar but familiar bolt and M3A1. Well, I knew it used Greasegun mags and it was similar in design because of the two guide rods but how similar is it. The Greasegun Bolt drops right into the receiver and lines up on the guide rods perfectly one Greasegun extractor later and at the next Knob Creek Fall 2003 subgun match I placed 28th out of 54 And with a little practice in the Fall of 2004 I placed 13th. I have been getting better all the time and even in local matches.

 

If you haven't had first hand experience with a Spitfire or any other low end buzzgun.

 

And so isn't that what it's all about basically overcoming advercities. Isn't that what this country has been all about! So if you make fun of and defame the honor my Spitfire your really making fun of and defaming the honor my my country. Them's fightin' words http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/mad.gif Subgun match any time!............................................................. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/blink.gif

 

Spitfire Subgun F/A

Spitfire Carbine S/A

Volunteer Carbine S/A

Eagle Carbine S/A

http://www.pixhost.com/pixg/gotvett/allspitfires%5B1%5D.jpg

Edited April 24, 2005 by spitfiresubgun

[colt21a]

and all this time i thought a spitfire was a ww2 plane used by the brit's against germany's messerschmidt's and heinkel bomber's....wink!! see you learn a little everyday...and too much spitfire info. never hurt anybody... thanks for the info spitfire...and welcome to this place of fact's and view's and heated discussion's...

 

i have gone one step beyond{once a fiftie's t.v.show}

and sold all my expensive colt's...... and bought a semi sbr thompson......now i am in the so called bottom feeder group........

 

but i have alot of spare change now!

and my sanity back!!

wink!! have fun, take care,ron

[Jay Baker]

Welcome to the forum Spitfiresubgun. Good first post. I never would have guessed there was so much information on spitfires available. And I applaud you on your ingenuity in turning what most might consider the sow's ear of smg's into something of a silk purse. Kudos.

[spitfiresubgun]

Hey Ron,

 

I am usually a quiet soft spoken person Buy when it comes to the "Spitfire Carbine" http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wub.gif Even though I did save some information for those who want to know how to do some of the modifications. My flood gates open like Niagara Falls.

 

You know it's funny but, Every time I would go to a gunshow and ask about information on the "Spitfire" They always say "You mean the airplane or the car"

 

Thanks, I am pleased to find this forum there is a lot of other interesting information I didn't realize I needed to know.

 

Hello Jay Thanks,

I have spent years picking up little bits and pieces of information.

Edited April 24, 2005 by spitfiresubgun

[Sgt]

All that exists is said to be locked in an eternal dance of opposites. Back would not exist without front, light without dark, likewise, buyer without seller. The course of each are set into motion by the interaction of the other. If greed is said to exist, is it not a reciprocal agreement?

-- Zen and the Art of Thompson Collecting

 

http://home.comcast.net/~ralfdog/Misc/YenYang.jpg

[spitfiresubgun]

Sgt, Great logo!

 

Phil,

 

I don't know the official ATF position on the Eagle. But just having the disconnector and ejector different has nothing to do with it from making it possible to fire FA,

 

In the Eagle the ejector extends forward on the disconnector and when the spent brass rides back in the bolt, it is hit by the ejector/disconnector and as it rides back further the bolt knocks the disconnector down disengaging the sear, momentarily then locking the bolt back.

 

The Spitfire does the exact same thing only the ejector is mounted to the receiver. It is an flat "L" shaped metal post welded to the outside centerline bottom of the receiver.

 

The both share the same style of safety! So will it make the Eagle trip FA ? http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif I'll take the 5th.

 

The thing with open bolts is that if you removed the parts for the trigger they would run FA. NO fire control, but FA none the less.

 

You would have to cut the safety off above there it contacts the sear in order to remove the pinning effect you can produce when pressing the safety down. You don't want the safety lever to overtravel. So you might want to put a stop into the frame. A 6/32 allen head bolt works fine and matches the original bolts. If you could find the parts install the newer push pin type of safety. And weld the frame to the receiver by welding over the bolt heads.

 

I should have posted the types of firearms in the first post. See the difference.

Spitfire Subgun F/A

Spitfire Carbine S/A

Volunteer Carbine S/A

Eagle Carbine S/A

Edited April 24, 2005 by spitfiresubgun

[Sgt]

Spitfire--

I certainly enjoyed your images and know a true collector, when I see one. I can tell you've been doing this awhile, and remember the days when these items were more plentiful. Hope you continue to frequent our board and give us more of your experiences. These are definitely unique firearms.

[Waffen Und Bier]

One of those FA Spitfires is just begging to be converted into an M3A1 Greasegun. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/tongue.gif