rhlowe Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 (edited) I,m about to send a WH 28 off to Craig Jordan, Tiffany Arms for engraving and a barrel. Has anybody delt with him? Edited December 1, 2005 by rhlowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
full auto 45 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Engraving? What are you doing to the gun!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhlowe Posted December 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Pantograph 21 markings. Relax I'm not making one of those god awful Midas touch things. Craig advised that he can remove the WH markings and place them on the flats inside the magwell for the ATF and then pantograph Colt 21 markings. I want it to look like a 21 when it left the factory. I bought a Savage part set from R Guns and have removed the markings from the frame and checkered the controls I'm still trying to figure out the hole in the safety paddle. Sounds ambitious, but I do good work. I know it's still a West Hurley, But I only paid $500 for it and can afford to spend a buck or two to make it into what looks like what I really want. I talked to PK and It will go to him when I'm finished to be checked out and I'll probably have PK make the Barrel. I'll try to get him to dip it, but I'll do the metal prep I'm real picky about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I've always wondered if altering the markings was possible, both technically and legally. On the technical side, I was always concerned that removing material could weaken the receiver. I''m sure you've done all your homework on all this. Sounds like an exciting project, one that I may consider one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK. Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 If your gun is a typical WH, you should have the mechanics repaired prior to any of the finishing work you describe. I have had no experience with Mr. Jordan, but am always leery when someone says they can remove the markings. These are typically pressed quite deeply into the receiver and taking off enough metal to eliminate them would be quite unwise. Filling is the only other option that comes to mind and while that could be done well, but has it’s own risks also. I would be careful here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 QUOTE (rhlowe @ Dec 1 2005, 08:37 AM) Pantograph 21 markings. Relax I'm not making one of those god awful Midas touch things. Craig advised that he can remove the WH markings and place them on the flats inside the magwell for the ATF and then pantograph Colt 21 markings. I want it to look like a 21 when it left the factory. I bought a Savage part set from R Guns and have removed the markings from the frame and checkered the controls I'm still trying to figure out the hole in the safety paddle. Sounds ambitious, but I do good work. I know it's still a West Hurley, But I only paid $500 for it and can afford to spend a buck or two to make it into what looks like what I really want. I talked to PK and It will go to him when I'm finished to be checked out and I'll probably have PK make the Barrel. I'll try to get him to dip it, but I'll do the metal prep I'm real picky about that. Yeah what he said..... How did you "remove" the markings? Please email or post pics if you have em... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhlowe Posted December 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 (edited) Phil: Can you cite the ATF rule which prevents remarking the gun in which section of the USC is this found. It is Illegal to tamper with the serial number, but the other markings are required at point of manufacture and not addressed again, as far as I know but that is why I'm here I don't by any means know it all and it appears that you have a much deeper knowledge of The USC. I would like the section though. I'm a Deputy Sheriff and learned a long time ago that "if it ain't writ it ain't law" I didn't realize that the "grinding/remarking business required special insurance. Gosh I never considered the collector value. If the gun runs It'll probably destroy it's collector value. I know it isn't a 21 and if I tried to sell it as such I'd be a crook. The gun isn't for sale and never in my lifetime will it be. It clearly states West Hurley on the transfer I'd think my heirs would have a hard time passing it off as a Colt. If I had a spare 30 to 40 K laying around then I'd sell it and buy a real 21 but I don't. Oh yea while we are talking about all this what has been your experience with the quality of Craig Jordan's work? Is he honest? Have you had any bad experiences with him? Thanks Edited December 1, 2005 by rhlowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 QUOTE (PhilOhio @ Dec 1 2005, 10:01 AM) I agree with our members who suggest putting the brakes on this "moving" of manufacturer marks. It's not called "moving". It is "removing". That's illegal. Isn't it simple? I don't think ATF or the Department of Justice would, or should, agree that hiding new markings someplace else makes everything sweetness and roses again. The rules say you don't grind 'em off. They don't say you can grind them off if you then place new ones under the grip bar, in the slot, in characters .035" high or something. Now just wait one second there pilgrim.... I can't believe that the Feds would have any problems with removing/changing markings on the reciever, excluding the Holy Grail of markings, the serial number...... And no need to move that..... but if I could remove the semi-auto markings on my gun it would tickle me like a feather up my a...... Well you get the drift..... BTW How in the heck did you wear off the markings on an AutoMag? I've owned, shot, and hunted with mine and no wear so far.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 No problem moving the Markings..A lot of Smiths offer this Service, especially for AK's.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Replacing the factory WH markings on the outside of the receiver and then substituting identical looking Colt markings does seem a fraudulent maneuver whether you intend to market the weapon in the future or not. PK can address the structural hazards of this and T Man can address the ATF legalities, but from an ethical stand point, there is, or should be, a limit to the masquerading projects applied to registered working smg/mg receivers. As PhilOhio pointed out, there is a difference in a Richardson dummy receiver replicating Colt TSMG markings and a factory WH going the last mile to achieve a superficial metamorphosis into a Colt TSMG. If you know that the WH isn't a Colt, and you advise your friends to this fact as well, then where in lies the rationale for the project except for the chance of deliberate fraud down the road? I could never figure out why collectors/hobbyists go through all this effort to merely convince themselves that what they are looking at is something else they know that it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhlowe Posted December 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Hold on a second guys. I enjoy gun projects. It sounds like a couple of you guys have never approached this hobby from any thing other than the I have deep pockets stand point. Now if I went to the range and unboxed my Thompson (I assume we are in agreement that it is a Thompson) and there happened to be a shooting buddy there and he said " Wow you have an original Colt model 21" and I simply said yep then I'd be a lire wouldn't I. I believe that a man's character is far more important than owning or purporting to own a Colt manufactured Thompson submachine gun. I resent the fraudulent comments, but do realize that many of you may be from parts of the country where being polite is not fashionable. I can tell you that if The above situation did occur my response would be "no it's not a Colt, but it was a fun project let me tell you about it" There is a member on this board that posted a photo of his Thompson DIAS Gun that is built on a Colt marked simi-auto receiver. It is absolutely beautiful and I'll bet he had far more fun putting it together than a rich guy simply reaching deep into his pocket to buy a 30K gun that he probably won't shoot. Anyway have any of you dealt with Craig Jordan? that was the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philasteen Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Arthur, I respectfully disagree. I don't think there is an ethical issue at all. So long as appropriate disclosure is made in the event of a resale, a person has the right to alter the cosmetic appearance of whatever he or she owns to suit his or her pleasing. Making a Colt reproduction out of a WH falls into that category; so long as there is no intent to deceive, there is no ethical issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Layton Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I've dealy with Craig Jordan. His work is first-rate. He is an expert craftsman and refinisher. He is a perfectionist and has worked on a lot of Colt Thompsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Jr Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 QUOTE (Arthur Fliegenheimer @ Dec 1 2005, 10:08 AM) Replacing the factory WH markings on the outside of the receiver and then substituting identical looking Colt markings does seem a fraudulent maneuver whether you intend to market the weapon in the future or not. "God forbid he mess with the glorious colt market"....Just say that over and over to yourself Arthur..... just say it over and over...... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhlowe Posted December 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Thanks Mark: And thanks to all for the legal and ethical advise You know us cops traditionally haven't been good at either. Maybe I'll hear from more of you who have dealt with Craig Jordan. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Fliegenheimer Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 rhlowe, I'm not impugning your motives as much as questioning your rationalization. You say that you are making these changes to your replica WH TSMG because a Colt TSMG is $30K. But five years ago they could be had for $10K, which is less than what you probably paid for your WH. Now that the Colt has appreciated to over $30K, you want to mimic the Colt receiver stampings? Yet you associate the Colt TSMG with what only "some rich guy" would only purchase and never shoot. Why then would you want to change your replica WH TSMG into one resembling the Colt snob TSMG? You can not have it both ways. But if you could explain how turning this WH into a project Colt TSMG, of which you are farming out the work anyway, that is now essentially a conversation piece to interested shooters at the range, provides a missing sense of legitimacy and historical significance that you believe your WH is lacking? Philistine, I do not disagree with the premise of your post, however, after the passage of time, the clarity of the original purpose for the unintentional subterfuge becomes more and more cloudy. I made the same observation with GH's spare parts boxes. I still do not see the point in going to such lengths to change the identity of a weapon if one immediately undermines the charade by exposing it as an impostor. JJ, Your comment is better directed at rhlowe, who simultaneously disses Colt TSMG owners, yet takes great pains to replicate the markings of their Thompson's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS9091 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 QUOTE (philasteen @ Dec 1 2005, 11:55 AM)Arthur, I respectfully disagree. I don't think there is an ethical issue at all. So long as appropriate disclosure is made in the event of a resale, a person has the right to alter the cosmetic appearance of whatever he or she owns to suit his or her pleasing. Making a Colt reproduction out of a WH falls into that category; so long as there is no intent to deceive, there is no ethical issue. http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/iagree.gif And as long as you have seen the appropriate paper work (F3 or F4) then you would know exactly what you are receiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhlowe Posted December 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 (edited) Arthur: I have no disrespect for Colt owners I carry a Colt everyday I wish I could afford a Colt Thompson. I do not however have any respect for someone who when asked a simple question " has anyone ever dealt with Craig Johnson" who wants to call me fraudulent and insinuate that I am a liar. I have many guns that none of my buddies have ever seen many are original guns that someone screwed up and I restored to represent a firearm that is way more valuable than what it originally was i.e. a Winchester 94 short rifle first year production in 38-55 caliber. That may mean nothing to you but to a Winchester collector it's a sweet gun. I paid $500 for my WH Thompson 06 Dec. 1986. Colt Thompson's have not been available for that price in my adult lifetime. I will have fun with this project even though I will be farming some of the work out. I have a pantograph but the cost of a master would be prohibitive It will cost $500 to remark the gun and then the cost of a 21a barrel. I intend to do as much of the work myself as I can. When I am finished I can fondle it and take it to the range maybe the next time you are in Texas we can go to the range and shoot some of my "fraudulent" weapons. You do not know me and Your post was an attack. It is a shame we could not have discussed all this face to face. I have been lurking around here for a week or two and you are very knowledgeable about Colt Thompson's It is a shame that you can not understand that a police officer can't afford one, therefore wishing to get as close as possible. Heck I can't afford a West Hurley with the machine gun ban. I guess I could do all the 21 stuff checkered controls, 21a barrel, Colt style metal finish, Dan Block wood (farming out again) and leave the West Hurley markings but, that would look like a fat girl in a mini skirt now wouldn't it. When I finish this project I'm thinking a 1919 made on a simi dimensioned receiver I'll make and probably mark the receiver. How many of those do you own? Thanks, Richard Edited December 1, 2005 by rhlowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondAmend Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Hey, if you can't move MG serial nos. how the heck am I supposed to take that stack of beat up M11/9's and move the numbers to some blank M240 and Minigun receivers? (wink) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 let me chime in on the subject.i knew and know alot of the guy's out there...like in restore's, manufacture's,re-do gunsmith's...and i do mean many.........and had work done by jordan.......{ he's okay however he will have my 100% endorsement when he apologize's to me!} for a little thing in 1998 when i hastily sent him a fax and used up his fax paper>give me a freakin break craig!! wink! i will not go into the thing's i know, and i have seen over the last 35 year's... let's just say alot of gun's out there are not what they appear to be..and i mean that for german, japanese,ah yes colt and even wes-hurlee... i have spent many a late evening over coffee and roll's or something more alcoholic........with alot of these guy's great they all are..but they have pulled some real wool over the eye's of some over the year's.... not anything illegal mind you... let's just say that m1-c garand looked mighty fine.and carbine stock with the nice cartouche...and that freakin mint matching fg-42 looked good..and by Lord...i never set eye's on a dual feed mp40..... and yes that colt 1919 doe's have the correct barrel. and that marlin rockwell b.a.r.doe's look better then new..!! and i never realized the nazi's had all these proof mark's..and that thompson sure has nice deep stamping's..along with a "TOMMYGUN " MARK! nuff said on the subject....for i know who has a ton of these gun's and some sold since... it's all in the eye of the beholder {owner} and if he want's something just so....he pay's for it right?? nothing wrong with that..just don't pass it off as such....i estimate 50% or more all all stuff has been reworked enhanced,changed part's plastic,wood, barrel. grip's magazine,whatever... after you have seen enough of them.......you will know..and if you have talked with the owner's of them you will know...good luck in the project... ask craig about #894 colt 21a... have a good one.take care,ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorcar Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 RHLOWE, A couple of thoughts that may improve your day on this board....if you have only been lurking for a week on this board then you have missed out on some of AF's more spectacular posts. He is worth the price of admission alone, but nothing to get upset about. Just take deep, calming breaths, and repeat Aurthur...Aurthur. There are a few Thompson full auto fellas here in Texas and a few more like me that only have a semi right now. T-Man is in Houston and does some great WW2 reenactments with his 28WH up in Fredricksburg at the Museum of the Pacific War. There are several there with Thompsons that travel to do the show. Take heart, there are some great guys here and a wealth of info, remember deep calming breaths..... http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/wink.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostsoldier Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Rhlowe, Welcome to the board! Let me be the first to agree with Motorcar…you just gotta hang in there. I can speak with authority…I’ve been a lurker here for over three years, a member for two, and when I first joined I got my ass reamed pretty severely for some jokingly inappropriate comments I made…I did deserve the corrections, but not the personal attacks that were also part of the responses. I was pissed…I swore I wouldn’t waste my time on this rag forum…but, cooler heads prevailed, and after a PM or two I received from some of the more respectable RKI members explaining to me the nature of some of the other people on this board, I capitulated, grew up a little, and returned…and learned a hell of a lot about Thompsons! I even became a sponsor back then (which I have just repeated again last night), because I appreciate the good guys on this site, and the effort that Nick and Co. put forth in providing this venue. I don’t need to tell you, as an officer of the law (myself a former corrections officer in my state's largest Maximum Security Prison), that the world is made up of 3 types of people… and 2 of those are opinionated assholes (as I’m sure you’ve dealt with a lot of them). This board is no different…it has its share of hardballers (no, this is NOT a personal attack against anyone on this particular thread)…but in the end, it’s the ONLY place on the web that you will find informative data on the venerable TSMG and its variants, presented in such illustrious (and sometimes flamboyant) detail by its owners and RKI’s. So, bite the bullet, enjoy the ride, and I hope to see you here many years to come! BTW, good luck with the project…I wished I could afford a Colt, Savage or even a WH rock-and-roller, but until then, I’ll have to make due with my lowly and humble, and I quote, “piece of shit Kahr†M1 SA…but, I can say, it’s a hell of a lot of fun! And it’s still a “Thompson†(now…that’s another thread altogether!)! http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Rob http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/soapbox.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIONHART Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 QUOTE more respectable RKI members http://www.machinegunbooks.com/forums/invboard1_1_2/upload/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z3BigDaddy Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 I'm sorry I still don't know why you think the ATF would care if you changed the markings on a gun, other than the serial number. Are they involved in keeping the lineage of Colt's pure somehow? Should I call to make sure I can change the barrel or go from blue to park? I just don't get the concern you have.... Now I could see the gun companies being pissed off if you represent your cheap gun as being one of their expensive guns and try to sell it as such. The SA revolver is a good example.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt21a Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 remember fella's.once you own it you can do whatever you want with it..blue it park it....add fancy wood ,plastic.option's.engrave stamp,gold tone {midas thompson}and that speak's for them all not just thompson's....heck how many ww2 vet's came back and chromed luger's??here and abroad,and p-38's... or sportered the brit enfield and mauser...and a few johnson's.{the rifle} once a saw a m-1 carbine...i guy nickled and jeweled the bolt.and carved in the wood name and serial number,i guess he wanted everybody to know it was his!!! alot of ak-rifle semi workand F.A. is being done right now by a few people,i have first hand knowledge of it.and the marking's and engraving's..some even endorse it as a true factory build or better. as in all thing's we want the best we can get for the buck's..and to some they want a clone copy.as most are not around anymore,no longer made.or priced sky high... heck i'm even buying a fg-42 semi clone copy.{brand new manufacture}why???because nobody has a mint cond.all matched original to sell me for $25,000.00 wink! and if they did with matched scope and mount.they'ed want $75,000.00 winK! have fun with it all.that is the bottom line...take care,ron well off to s.a.r.show i will give the report on sunday night.oh! the horror! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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