Colt 1921 Serial Number Reveal: Gangster Gun

[nate129]

I work for an agency that has a 1921 Colt Thompson in eastern Twin Cities Minnesota. The serial number has been chiseled away. I posted about it here a few years back. Recently, board member “TD” (Tom) reached out to me expressing an interest in researching this weapon. He introduced me to board member “gijive” (Chuck), who has the Richardson vice and wrench, and was willing to drive up to remove the barrel. I also wanted to use this as a training opportunity for my own recently acquired wrench and vice from Mohawk here on the boards.

 

While waiting to set this up I reached out to the NFA branch and was able to obtain the registration. Our agency registered the weapon in September 1934, and the form noted it was acquired in June 1925 (later proven to be inaccurate). Chuck was skeptical on this acquisition date due to the later variation of Thompson trademark on top of the receiver. Also interesting is that the weapon was registered without a serial number (noted chiseled off) but an IRS number was later added in 1971. Which according to research provided by Chuck and Tom lines up with another Thompson sold around 1971 here in the Midwest to a private buyer without a serial number (that weapon also has an interesting gangster history) and apparently both weapons then received IRS numbers around that time. At some point in this weapon’s history the barrel was replaced with a M1 style smooth barrel and a WW2 era Cutts Compensator. Older employees recall a drum magazine but I can’t find one. A historical picture from 1938 shows a deputy seated and holding this Thompson in the office; its too grainy to see barrel detail but a Cutts Compensator is visible. A finned barrel was remembered by an employee - we later found it and determined it was WW2 vintage Stevens manufactured barrel.

 

Last week Chuck arrived with fellow board member “tsmg28” (Roger) to remove the barrel. I was very pleased to meet them in person and was so impressed with their knowledge. This website truly is a great community and would like to do my part to give a little back.

 

Chuck and Roger took me through the barrel removal process. I recorded nearly the entire thing and would like to share it with all of you – especially those who want to learn the barrel removal process, and also for those interested in the historical reveal of this weapon’s serial number (around the 17 minute 30 second mark on the video).

 

We found serial number 4945. Historical research from Chuck’s book indicates this was acquired by Von Lengerke & Antoine Sporting Goods of Chicago on 3/31/1927. Sold as the AC model. It was then sold to the “Gopher State Mines Company” of Minneapolis on 5/20/1927. According to news articles from the time, this was a fictitious company run by the mob; it is suspected that all 7 guns sent to Gopher State Mines ended up with the Touhy Gang. Roger noted the 20 round magazines all appear to be period correct (plus one 18 round shot shell magazine).

 

What I currently don’t know is how the weapon came into possession of our office. I am working with the bosses to interview retirees. The only stories learned so far was “taken from a bootlegger in the northern part of the county” and “taken from a gangster in the eastern part of the county.” Our county has a historical society who thankfully saved the jail registers from the prohibition period being displayed in the historic jail. This book shows the name, date, and primary charge for everyone booked into the county jail. I combed through the book from May 1927 (sold to Gopher Mines) to September 1934 (agency registration) for any names associated with the Touhy Gang. I found none; it is very possible names I found in the book are fictitious or alias names. I suspect fingerprinting was not done locally until an inmate was committed to the state prison. One interesting entry was a “Harry Cooper” booked for robbery and released a few days later on a $20,000 bond. He did not come back into the jail book so it appears he skipped bail. Chuck researched the name and found a news article of the time mentioning he robbed an amusement park; no mention of a Thompson. There were no weapons charges during this period but presumably it was not illegal to have a Thompson until 1934. A few murders but several of those arrested were committed to the state hospital so that does not line up with gangster activity. Lots of charges for possession, distribution, and manufacture of liquor.

 

Research continues. It sounds like this may only be the second of the 7 gun order to Gopher Mines to be recovered which is very interesting. Perhaps other members here can provide more insight. Chuck continues to research news articles in the area. He is also looking at articles that mention the elected Sheriff at the time (1918-1942) Thomas Maher (who also singed the 1934 registration form). There are some mentions of Sheriff Maher nearly catching John Dillinger in the area in 1933.

 

I will continue to seek stories from retirees, and am also seeking any microfiche catalogs that may contain old reports or evidence entries from this time period.

 

The agency is not interested in selling this weapon, or trading it for modern equipment. I do intend to seek funding to obtain a repro 1921 barrel and compensator from Mr. PK.

 

Video of barrel removal and serial number reveal:

(1080p HD for capable browsers).

 

A HUGE thank you to Chuck and Roger for driving a good distance to pull the barrel and provide the interesting research to get us closer to learning how it came into our possession. I sent them onto another agency with a Thompson locally with a defaced serial number, they found that number as well on a rare 1927 model (converted). If Chuck and Roger are so inclined they can tell that story, I was not there. Also thanks to Tom for motivating me to proceed and providing research.

Edited August 13, 2020 by nate129

[Rimcrew]

Great read, thanks for sharing.

 

I'd be interested in contributing to help buy the barrel from PK. Let me know if I can help.

[HANS]

I work for an agency that has a 1921 Colt Thompson in eastern Twin Cities Minnesota. The serial number has been chiseled away. I posted about it here a few years back. Recently, board member “TD” (Tom) reached out to me expressing an interest in researching this weapon. He introduced me to board member “gijive” (Chuck), who has the Richardson vice and wrench, and was willing to drive up to remove the barrel. I also wanted to use this as a

 

Very cool story, thanks for sharing! Also great to see Chuck in action

 

With the Gopher Mines guns and the Touhy Gang, it is important to remember that while it has always been assumed that the Touhys got those, none of the guns that were actually seized from Touhy Gang members (and there were at least six, possibly seven) were from the Gopher Mines buy as far as we know today. In other words, the Touhy Gang connection is mere hearsay so far.

 

Also, even if the Touhy Gang was the original recipient, the gun could have been seized from another gang, since the guns were of course traded among criminals. Two chaps that might be worth looking into are Reinhold Engel, arrested with a "machine gun" in January 1931, and Phil Ray, arrested in May 1932.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[rpbcps]

I really enjoyed watching that video, and the TATA Apron is a nice touch!

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

[Vettom]

Thank you for sharing such an interesting history Sir

[giantpanda4]

Wow! Gopher States Mining Co, eh? IIRC, that was the same company that allegedly bought the Jackson County, MI gun.

 

Sig can add a lot here. I cannot remember the s/n (stamped on the gun) that the Sheriff Dept registered the gun, nor the actual s/n when we pulled the barrel.

 

I cannot find the .pptx we create with all the details of that gun, but I do remember it going to Gopher States Mining Co!

 

More to come...

[giantpanda4]

This is a page from the presentation done by Sig and myself (around 2012) after we researched the Jackson Co. gun. it was stamped 11573 even though it was actually 5518

Edited August 13, 2020 by giantpanda4

[nate129]

Thank you all for the great replies. Rimcrew, that offer is very appreciated. I will reach out to PK soon to get a quote for the parts, and if the bosses don't approve the purchase I will be in touch via PM.

 

Hans, good point. From what I have read the Touhy gang was being set up for several crimes, such as the Hamm kidnapping here in MN and Factor kidnappings. The names you provided are interesting, are those local arrests? I have not divulged our agency name to try and prevent the bosses from being burdened by purchasing requests but we are located in Stillwater MN.

 

Giantpanda4, Chuck mentioned these guns have been elusive. With ours, the Michigan gun, and the weapon mentioned in this news article from the Chicago Tribune found by Chuck (attached to this post), that makes 3 of the 7 noted in the book sold to Gopher Mines. Was the Jackson County gun tied to a particular gangster?

 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by nate129

[gijive]

 

Thank you all for the great replies. Rimcrew, that offer is very appreciated. I will reach out to PK soon to get a quote for the parts, and if the bosses don't approve the purchase I will be in touch via PM.

 

Hans, good point. From what I have read the Touhy gang was being set up for several crimes, such as the Hamm kidnapping here in MN and Factor kidnappings. The names you provided are interesting, are those local arrests? I have not divulged our agency name to try and prevent the bosses from being burdened by purchasing requests but we are located in Stillwater MN.

 

Giantpanda4, Chuck mentioned these guns have been elusive. With ours, the Michigan gun, and the weapon mentioned in this news article from the Chicago Tribune found by Chuck (attached to this post), that makes 3 of the 7 noted in the book sold to Gopher Mines. Was the Jackson County gun tied to a particular gangster?

 

Touhy.png

 

Nate,

 

Thanks for posting the article, I was just going to do the same. I remember speaking with Gordon about these guns and he had used the article posted as the source for his belief that the Touhy Gang had been behind the phony purchase of the guns to Gopher States Mines.

 

Hans brings up an excellent point, however, even if the Touhy Gang had orchestrated the purchase of the guns, they were a valuable commodity that could easily sold or traded to other gangsters. The eventual information on the actual recovery of # 4945 might not be related to the Touhy Gang, whatsoever.

 

Nate, thanks again for your hospitality and cooperation in this project. I look forward to continuing to be involved in the research of this gun and how it came to be in the possession of your agency.

 

Here is an article from the Chicago Tribune describing a machine gun battle that occurred in the intersection Harlem and North Avenues, Oak Park, Illinois, from 1933. This shootout involved Touhy Gang members and a rival gang.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by gijive

[Motorcar]

Thanks for posting the video, great stuff! Nice to put faces to names as well. Nicely done gentlemen.

 

100 years after the Colt's being manufactured there is still history to be discovered.

[Gio]

This is all interesting stuff. I enjoyed the video and related history.

 

 

Frank

[MG08]

 

 

Thank you all for the great replies. Rimcrew, that offer is very appreciated. I will reach out to PK soon to get a quote for the parts, and if the bosses don't approve the purchase I will be in touch via PM.

 

Hans, good point. From what I have read the Touhy gang was being set up for several crimes, such as the Hamm kidnapping here in MN and Factor kidnappings. The names you provided are interesting, are those local arrests? I have not divulged our agency name to try and prevent the bosses from being burdened by purchasing requests but we are located in Stillwater MN.

 

Giantpanda4, Chuck mentioned these guns have been elusive. With ours, the Michigan gun, and the weapon mentioned in this news article from the Chicago Tribune found by Chuck (attached to this post), that makes 3 of the 7 noted in the book sold to Gopher Mines. Was the Jackson County gun tied to a particular gangster?

 

Touhy.png

 

Nate,

 

Thanks for posting the article, I was just going to do the same. I remember speaking with Gordon about these guns and he had used the article posted as the source for his belief that the Touhy Gang had been behind the phony purchase of the guns to Gopher States Mines.

 

Hans brings up an excellent point, however, even if the Touhy Gang had orchestrated the purchase of the guns, they were a valuable commodity that could easily sold or traded to other gangsters. The eventual information on the actual recovery of # 4945 might not be related to the Touhy Gang, whatsoever.

 

Nate, thanks again for your hospitality and cooperation in this project. I look forward to continuing to be involved in the research of this gun and how it came to be in the possession of your agency.

 

Here is an article from the Chicago Tribune describing a machine gun battle that occurred in the intersection Harlem and North Avenues, Oak Park, Illinois, from 1933. This shootout involved Touhy Gang members and a rival gang.

 

Machine Gun Battle Oak Park 1933(1).jpg Machine Gun Battle Oak Park 1933-Diagram.jpg Machine Gun Battle Oak Park 1933-Ofc. Kerber(1).jpg

 

I think Walt is going to post the info for the afternoon barrel removal / reveal gun at the other PD ( Model 1927 gun) , So I won't muddy the water with half info..... But Had a good time watching, meeting everyone and the historical society folks will have the video of that event at some point. And no, they are not selling it either.

 

Brian

[giantpanda4]

As of when we found the Jackson MI gun, what was known was it was taken from a guy named Richard Burke. No relation (presumably) to Fred Burke.

 

It was taken at a car crash site on Christmas eve, 1929. Burke was paroled for other previous crimes in Oct 1929 from Marquette Prison, and would have had to get possession of the gun between Oct - Dec 1929. Any idea where/what the Touhy gang was up to then? How did they cross paths?

 

He didn't talk. So we never knew where he got it, nor were able to find out what ever happened to Richard Burke.

[HANS]

Hans, good point. From what I have read the Touhy gang was being set up for several crimes, such as the Hamm kidnapping here in MN and Factor kidnappings. The names you provided are interesting, are those local arrests? I have not divulged our agency name to try and prevent the bosses from being burdened by purchasing requests but we are located in Stillwater MN.

 

I've deduced your agency from the information you provided The men I mentioned were arrested locally, although I'm not sure whether by your agency. The jurisdiction of law enforcement in the US is a bit opaque from a European standpoint, and certainly was byzantine in the 1930s -- I've read about a ton of arrests that involved half a dozen agencies ... Anyway, I've got nothing to tie these chaps to your gun other than that they were arrested in the timeframe with a "machine gun" (which doesn't even need to have been a submachine gun) in your area. Still, they could be interesting starting points in trying to find out who previously held it.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

Edited August 13, 2020 by HANS

[john]

Very interesting as I live in Birchwood, only a few miles west of Stillwater and in the same county.

If any work is needed requiring a machinist I have a very gifted friend who has helped me rebarrel a '28 of mine more than once and his shop is in Stillwater just a couple miles from downtown.

Birchwood has its own history back in the 30s with Ma Barker and Alvin Karpis but I won't go into all that.

I'd certainly be online to assist in the future if needed restoring the gun.

Also interested as I just recently found out that my great grandfather was a moonshiner up in Sunrise, Mn. And supplied a bit of shine to those involved ....even had his new Dodge stolen by the mob in Minneapolis as a getaway after a bank heist.

Please, keep me posted!

 

john

[nate129]

Thank you Hans, I am compiling a list of names to check back in the jail registry when I have the time.

 

John, nice to meet you. Had I known you were so close you definitely would have got an invitation to the unveiling party. The historic court house in Stillwater has the jail registry on display in the old jail cells, and have been good to work with so far. If you ever stop in there and enter the jail area you will find this picture from 1938 on the wall (poor quality as I took this picture with my cell phone). Seated on the right is Deputy Greeder holding the Thompson. The cuts compensator is definitely present but the details are too blurry to see the barrel. But since the current barrel is M1 style I am sure it was replaced after 1938. The staff as the historical society is checking into if they have any old microfiche preserved with records from the era; I am finding nothing here at the office.

 

Chuck continues to research old news articles from the relevant time frame. I believe his system is only pulling articles from the major metro papers. I wonder if the Stillwater Gazette was around during this time period and if they have any searchability from their office?

 

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by nate129

[Colt Chopper]

Great stuff !

It's very exciting when you get drawn into the history vortex !

[Atllaw]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting. Might consider a cross link on the gangsters and lawmen thread.

[Player_To_Be_Named]

Fascinating history - thank you for sharing.

[gijive]

All,

 

While speaking with Board member nate 129 the past couple of days, a promising lead has developed regarding the origin of the Thompson described in this post. Nate is currently following up on the information to confirm some details. He will post the results of his investigation as more information is developed. Stay tuned!

[HANS]

All,

 

While speaking with Board member nate 129 the past couple of days, a promising lead has developed regarding the origin of the Thompson described in this post. Nate is currently following up on the information to confirm some details. He will post the results of his investigation as more information is developed. Stay tuned!

 

Cool, can't wait! I have another possible owner: Fred Burkowski, arrested in June 1933.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[gijive]

Hi Hans,

 

I will email you privately with some information on the possible origin of serial # 4945. I believe you are correct that the Touhy gang was likely not responsible for the purchase of all these Gopher State Mines guns. I haven't been able to determine any link, at this point, to the potential end user of # 4945 with the Touhy's.

 

There will another thread on the second gun we revealed the serial number on in St. Cloud, Minnesota. That gun was # 6756, a 1927 Model Semi-Automatic Carbine converted back to full auto configuration. We believe that gun is attributable to Fred Burkowski, sometimes spelled Bukowski in period newspaper accounts.

Edited August 15, 2020 by gijive

[HANS]

Hi Hans,

 

I will email you privately with some information on the possible origin of serial # 4945. I believe you are correct that the Touhy gang was likely not responsible for the purchase of all these Gopher State Mines guns. I haven't been able to determine any link, at this point, to the potential end user of # 4945 with the Touhy's.

 

There will another thread on the second gun we revealed the serial number on in St. Cloud, Minnesota. That gun was # 6756, a 1927 Model Semi-Automatic Carbine converted back to full auto configuration. We believe that gun is attributable to Fred Burkowski, sometimes spelled Bukowski in period newspaper accounts.

 

Hiya Chuck, please do!

 

Great to hear that another puzzle piece has been solved.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[nate129]

Chuck continues to amaze me with his knowledge and research. Chuck provided me with a copy of testimony from court proceedings following the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre where staff of the Von Lengerke & Antoine Sporting Goods Store were being questioned about the selling of Thompsons that ended up with the mob. Part of that testimony involves the reading of a letter from the Minneapolis Police Department who was requested to research the Gopher Mines Company (at that point it appears V L & A staff had lost records of the sale, which they blame on their own retention period due to small storage space). Minneapolis determined the company was fictitious, and mentions the only known Thompson was confiscated by our agency following the murder of St. Paul bootlegger William Barrett. The Thompson recovered was believed to be owned by Barrett.

Chuck’s initial research into William Barrett was inconclusive but he eventually learned there was an error in the above testimony or Minneapolis PD letter, the correct name is James “Jimmy” Barrett. News articles indicate he was a daytime businessman and a nighttime bootlegger, and was suspected of several murders including two St. Paul MN policemen. Around August 1927 Barrett’s wife and her sister were found murdered in their St. Paul home, and a few days later James Barrett’s body was found on a rural road in northern Ramsey County. A man named Arthur “Wicky” Hanson, apparently an associate of James’, was arrested for the murder. Around late September 1927 Arthur Hanson led authorities to a weapons cache James’ kept in the woods near Dellwood MN. There a Thompson, hundreds of rounds of ammo, and a rifle were recovered. Another news story Chuck found mentions the cache was empty and the guns were found by local children. Apparently the cache was then turned over to St. Paul Police. I suspect the Thompson was returned to our agency after the case was resolved.

I have got in touch with the St. Paul Police historical society and am trying to find any documents on the Barrett case if they still exist. I feel this Thompson’s history is likely determined, thanks to Chuck, and we will hopefully soon have proof in case files.

This seems to further disprove the Gopher guns going to the Touhy gang. Chuck suspects Twin Cities area mobsters obtained them and possible sold some thereafter.

If any members have info on James Barrett please post. Gratefully, Nate

[nate129]

another interesting aspect of this weapon not previously mentioned is the presence of two parallel gouges in the receiver near the rear sight. These marks are obviously deliberate and likely indicate two prior incidents. Perhaps bank robberies or murderers?