Unusual Thompson 1928 Markings

[Thomas Montgomery]

I live in South Africa and came across this gem of a Thompson. Serial number is S-19457. There are however, a few markings on this particular Thompson that I was hoping the experts could help me with. Apart from the usual GEG and English spelling "Calibre .45 Automatic Cartridge", this Thompson has the New York address on the receiver. I am familiar with all these markings. The markings I am not familiar with include:

 

• British broad arrow head with a small crown and some numbers underneath it. (This obviously means that the firearm went to Europe;possibly lend-lease?)
• The stock also has the serial number (matching) engraved into the wood along with what appears to read "Dual Purpose" with some sort of triangular cartouche.
• Another arrow is stamped into the top of the receiver with initials : "S.R.G D.P" stamped below the arrow.

I believe this firearm therefore went to Europe during the early stages of WW2 and was then sent to the Rhodesian army. I have heard rumors that it was most likely used by the Rhodesian S.A.S forces, but I can't find a single shred of evidence that would verify this rumor.

 

I will upload a few photos as soon as I am able to.

 

Your time and effort is greatly appreciated.

 

 

[darrylta]

TM,

It appears that you have an early Commercial Savage 28. It was most likely bought by the Brit's to arm it's home guard, pre lend lease.

Pictures would be nice, is it a live gun or dewatted display gun?

Very nice find, does it have any modified furniture / sling attachment points?

Darryl

[TD.]

Thomas Montgomery,

Welcome to the Board!

 

Yes, you do have a gem of a Thompson. S-19457 would be an early Savage Thompson, one manufactured under the first contract between Auto-Ordnance and Savage Arms. Aside from the New York address on the right side of the receiver it also has patent dates - something found only on the early Savage guns.

 

The British markings indicate it was most likely purchased by the British government during World War II during a period referred to as cash-and-carry. It is definitely a pre-lend lease gun. It is not a Savage Commercial Thompson. That is a term used by collectors to describe Savage Thompsons sold by Auto-Ordnance to law enforcement organizations in the USA during the early days World War II. There is no master list of these commercially sold Thompsons so paperwork establishing provenance to a law enforcement organization is very important. The word commercial is not an Auto-Ordnance term or official variation. The fact S-19457 has British markings pretty much negates this possibility.

 

Without looking at the other markings I would guess they were applied after S-19457 left the factory.

 

I would very much like to see pictures of this Thompson. If possible, please include pictures of the patent dates I mention above.

 

Questions:

Does the frame serial number match the receiver serial number?

Does it have a compensator?

 

Early Savage Thompsons are difficult to locate. Most of these guns were put to use in the early days of World War II when the outcome was far from certain. I believe many were simply lost in battle or used up and discarded. The early production date of S-19457 most likely precludes it from being a Home Guard issued Thompson. How it got to South Africa would make an interesting story. You have a real keeper! We look forward to the pictures.

[Arthur Fliegenheimer]

Yes, SRG - Southern Rhodesia Govt. SRG took over from the British South Africa Company, and ceased to exist when Rhodesia was recognized. DP - stands for Drill Purpose. No doubt your TSMG was designated exclusively for drill purpose use.

[darrylta]

TD and I have had the "Savage Commercial" denotation argument in the past. The New York stamped Savage Thompsons that were sold to PDs and

the Brit's are the same gun, made with the same tooling and parts. Just because the early ones were sold to PDs in the states does not change

the fact that it's the same gun. I know, because I own one in the late 60,000 range Savage Commercials.

 

For comparison, I guess the Colts sold to in the US were "Commercials", the remaining one that were sold to other countries are just Colts.

The bottom line.....there the same gun.

 

What TD is spouting is just his personal conjecture, I'm in the camp as T. Hill book states in the Early Savage section, He depicts a Savage in the 40K range as

being a fine example of a Savage Commercial. I guess it's whatever floats your boat as what you personally call it,,,,it's the same gun.

 

My 2 cents,

Darryl

[TD.]

Darryl mistakenly believes every Savage Thompson was a commercial product. The great great majority were manufactured and sold by AOC as military products. The few that went to the commercial market in the USA, i.e., law enforcement organizations, are what collectors and enthusiasts refer to by the unofficial name, Savage Commercial Thompsons. These documented guns will bring a premium price, almost in line with the Colt's. Military Savage Thompsons generally sell for much less.

 

Arthur - great information!

[darrylta]

^TD,

^{There you go again, twisting what I stated. Give Tracie and I a little credit. If it has a New York address, with Colt like features as in levers , mag catch, furniture}

^{and other items. It came from the same production line run that that you and I both call Commercials. Again,, it's the same gun,}

^{Are you contesting that the latter guns like the one posted below are not identical guns in everyway except for purchaser?}

^{I'm not contesting that the documented commercials may bring higher prices to collectors, any addition to add more provenance to any gun, will always raise the selling price.}

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2013 by darrylta

[TD.]

Darryl,

I have never seen a Savage Thompson in the 60,000 serial number range with documentation or provenance it was purchased by a law enforcement organization in the USA in 1941. You have a very nice Savage Thompson. I especially like the no-hole magazine catch although either type would be correct. I would like to know the type and color of finish on the barrel and the year it was born on the NFA Registry. I am not so concerned with Colt era internals.

 

The pictures used in TUTB for the section on Savage Commercial Thompsons were unfortunate. I would guess the editor was confused. It should have been corrected. Sutton Coffman's picture of a 1928 Thompson has British proofs; John Boyce's 28 NAC has pin type levers. Both are obviously wrong. Mistakes in all reference books happen.

 

Most people who study the early Savage Thompsons believe the commercial sales ended around the 25,000 serial number range. I am not as committed to this number as I was in the past. However, I have never seen a documented Savage Commercial Thompson in the 30,000 serial number range or above. I will agree that does not mean a few do not exist.

 

All good stuff! Thank you for posting a picture of your Savage Thompson.

[Thomas Montgomery]

Guys thanks for all the help and the hospitality. I have attached a few pictures for you. TD, I will have to upload the pictures of the patent dates at a later stage, but in the meantime I hope this helps.

 

The Thompson is still in full working order and does have a compensator. The serial number on the frame and receiver differs unfortunately (as I believe most did). The serial numbers are S-19457 and S-64XXX.

 

Most of the components are marked with an "S" as well indicating that all the components seem to be original.

 

Enjoy the pictures guys and thanks again for all the help.

 

 

[darrylta]

TD,

My contention with your strict generality is , yes I'd love for my New York Savage to have PD documentation, it does not. It has British

proof markings. But it is the exact same gun that you and others have named to be a "commercial", it differs only by the original purchaser. That's what

I've trying to get across. Is a Colt less of a Colt because it was purchased by the French?

 

I do have the FOIA on it, I'll check it when I'm in the safe again.

 

-Darryl

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TD.]

Thomas,

You have a very nice early Savage Thompson. It certainly shows the wear and tear of a lot of hard use over the years - but this only adds to its character. The British markings show it was a cash and carry Thompson purchased by the British in 1940. There is no documentation that shows where Savage Arms began serial numbering on Thompsons. Most believe it was where Colt's stopped or at 15041. Savage Thompsons in the 15,000 serial number range validate this belief. As you can see, your Thompson is a very early one.

 

The markings on top of the receiver were certainly applied after S-19457 left the factory. See Arthur's comments above for information on these markings. And please expand should you find any additional information on the markings. I would like to see a picture of the patent date markings in the future.

 

It is not uncommon for the frame number not to match the receiver serial number, especially on military guns. However, when it left the factory, all numbers matched. I have found that Thompson submachine guns seem to have an uncanny ability to survive. The are truly an iconic firearm. Again, congratulations on your new acquisition.

 

Darryl,

I thought your Savage Thompson had British markings but I did not want to assume that as I cannot keep up with everyone's Thompson gun. British markings would most likely preclude it from being one of the few Savage Thompson sold to a law enforcement organization during World War II. Since the "Savage Commercial Thompson" moniker is but collector term with no factory or company specifications, you can call anything you want commercial. However, without provenance to a law enforcement organization or police department markings or that unmistakable "commercial look" found on Savage Thompsons with an early serial number, you are not going to have many followers. What you do have is a beautiful Savage Thompson with British markings. That in itself is a nice find.