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How rare are 100% matching MP-40s?


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Bought an MP-40 with original finish and was pleasently surprised to see that is is fully matching. Bolt, barrel, all small parts, even the resting bar. Sling original too.

Usual wear of course but no pitting etc. I started looking around on the web and the fully matching ones are not too common. How common are they in your opinion?

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Depends on the country tbh. For example in European countries you are much much likely to find fully functional fully matching MP-40, while in US it is different story. I think that is a great purchase you have made, if you didn't pay fortunes for it.

I sold one fully matching in extremely good condition to a customer in US for 55,000$. It was original first series MP-40 that looked like brand new, I suppose it wasn't used much before I got it, that's why the big price tag, and because of customs as well.

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Here's my opinion.The condition of the MGs offered today on and in the markets/auctions in no way reflects the conditions of the MGs in the hands of collectors and shooters, which is the vast majority of all MGs available for private transfer and possession. The two categories of transferable MP40s, C+R and remanufactured, both contain large numbers of "matching" numbered guns. Market prices still closely relate to condition with "matching" numbers still a very valuable asset since it is not subjective: the MP40 either is or isn't. Far, far fewer high quality MP40s, or matching MP40s are offered today so it appears that there are few in the system. The disparity in value between the subjective value of a very good condition MP40 and a high condition MP40 is huge now compared to the 1970/1980s and later when many MP40s offered were of very high condition including matching numbers. Back then, high quality, matching MP40s were far more common on the market and the disparity in value between those and less condition guns was quite small, barring unique anomalies, etc. Hitler's MP40 for example!! The rating scale has been progressively diluted over the years to elevate fair condition MP40s to a much higher condition status even though they are still just fair. The subjective assessments now include far, far more variables than ever before to make fair guns into very good and better guns or make the grade from shooter to collector guns. The objective criteria of "matching numbers" MP40s have benefitted them in the market as well for the same reasons. A fair condition MP40 with the magical "matching numbers" has an increasingly elevated value as time goes by and the perception is that there are not many of them in the NFRTR. A hard ratio of matching guns to mismatched guns is impossible to formulate. Compared to the huge numbers of MP38/40s produced, and the comparatively small number in the NFRTR, the very small pool of MP40s that I've owned or handled over the years from reactivations, and brokering, etc indicates to me that matching number MP40s significantly outnumber mismatched MP40s. As an amusing aside, I'd hazard a guess that there is a much higher percentage of matching MP38s than MP40s in the NFRTR relative to the total number of registered MP38s in that archive.
An asset that is hyped on an MG offered on the market as "rare" usually means that the seller hasn't seen other such guns or few have shown up for sale with the particular prized asset rather than it being a rare asset in the entire pool of registered MGs. In my view, even though in my experience matching numbers overall are not a rarity, as an objective characteristic of MP40s offered for sale it's value will continue to climb.
FWIW

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Well, the issue of forced matching of numbers on a C+R MP40 was not addressed in my post since it is rare and never successful, in my opinion, and if successful, escapes detection so can't be counted. If a number is counterfeit but cannot be detected, is it counterfeit? Forced matching always involves elimination of or marking out an unmatched number and substituting a matching number. Sometimes the part did not have a number and the forger decided to "enhance" the gun by adding a number. Or possibly the factory used a different font for that particular small part. Removal of most numbers on major parts cannot be done without detection of the work on an MP40 regardless of how it is done. I've suspected that a few two digit marked small MP40 parts were faked that may not originally have had numbers, like on screw heads, but there was no evidence that could fairly confirm fakery so they were accepted them as real. It is interesting to see the variety of very small details that are different from one gun to another over many different MP40s.
Perfectly counterfeiting MP40 fonts and waffens is extremely difficult and I have not seen any counterfeit stamps in my own experience that will fool someone who has seen many vintage examples and is familiar with how they look. I've seen attempts on reman MP40s and some on mixed part guns, and there are some very good attempts, but they tend to stand out like a sore thumb. In my opinion counterfeiting is a non-issue as the alteration would be easily detected and devalue the gun. There is a great deal of detail commonly known about most collector MGs these days, as well as excellent references and resources in books and knowledgeable individuals to obtain information.
One of my favorite ad statements is: Gun is all matching except for......."

FWIW

Edited by BRMCII
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I'd say if you were "pleasantly surprised" that it was all matching numbers you were very lucky (depending of course on how much it cost). I recently saw one on GB advertised as all matching numbers, and then a short time letter the ad was edited noting the seller didn't realize so many parts were numbered and upon further inspection there were a number of mismatched numbered parts. In any event, pictures would be nice to see.

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I have examined several MP40s with an eye to buying. Guns with bolt and recoil spring housing mismatches seem to be more common than all matching examples. You also have to consider how any potential purchase has been used and stored all of these years. Do you really want a gun that's been extensively used until it's just about worn out? The bolt face and breech end of the barrel will tell the tale. Well used examples will look battered in this area.

 

The only all matching MP40 that I've been able to examine at leisure is my own bnz 41 example. It's clear that the serial numbers are identical in size, font, and style. I believe they were probably applied with the same dies, or at least by identical dies. The serials would be almost impossible to counterfeit. It would be really obvious if someone tried.

 

Each MP40 was originally built up by a single well trained assembler. I don't know about late war MP40s, but those made early in the war are quality efforts. Fit and function are excellent, even with the extensive use of steel stampings to lower cost and speed production. Parts and tube guns just are not the same.

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Wow, that's a lot of informative posts so thanks for that. This gun is indeed not in the US, so price is irrelevant as the market situation with the NFA register etc taken into account. But I paid around the equivalent of USD1.900 for it, but again that is irrelevant. Its a COS/FXO from 1941 so Merz/Haenel. Barrel and breach face is decent, some frost in the barrel bu strong lands and grooves.

 

 

Pictures did not turn out great, apologies, snowy rain so the gun got a bit wet.

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Yes was numbers stamped on some mag wells not all.But some.I have only owned 3 early guns with flat mag wells and one MP-38 that i had for awhile the rest sold quick. WILL see what i have on file and that gun for 1900 bucks. what is to worry that is chump change.R.K.

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THERE ARE numbers on the first one and another i had last 2 digits 61 and i saw a MP-38 even the grip bakelite had the number Bring back original and my buddy in town has a all matched one about exc. plus to minty bought in a local gun shop rack over 20 years ago for $5,000.00 pics here, also the one on bubble wrap is all matched WW2 bring back and papered as a tube gun in 1986, it is not.a tube gun. R.K.

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Here is the local all matched and that MP-38 with numbers on bakelite. yeah thats all i got...And the items are all original flag helmet medals and mags and loader.I sold my entire Helmet and flag collection to him. so he has some great stuff. including my Bismarck flag,16 foot and pic and signed card from a survivor of the ship. I was into MP-40'S just as long as Thompsons 50 years. Have seen many but not too many that had been better than whatever i bought.Sure they are out there. I just never saw them or the ones that said they had better i would bring a few and said pick one.Somebody has #7888c out there. A long tale on that one.Probably adds Not much to this conversation of value or rarity..... But since my time on the planet is limited i figured post away now. R.K.

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Edited by colt21a
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Colt21a: since you mention it, your MP40 that you note is registered as a "reman" or "tube gun", which can be two different animals due to how they are done, but was not processed, appears to me to be a good example of an MG that was registered as a "reman" but was never cut and welded or built with a new made receiver. If the ID of the importer/manufacturer on rhe registration is not one indicating vintage manufacture by name of factory or country of origin, usually Germany, etc, and has the name of an FFL or individual in the US, and the receiver was never processed, then it is a compromised registration. Is the receiver marked with the name and ID of the manufacturer.? The usual procedure for an FFL or individual F1 registrations between '68 and May, '86, was to just file the F1 or F2 as the registrant and manufacturer but never actually do the work to "remanufacture" the receiver.

There is a minor population of such compromised MG registrations in the NFRTR and years ago there were a number of collectors seeking to buy these MGs since they sere priced well below market due to the compromised registration. No doubt some were done by mistake from "misunderstanding the regulations and some were done deliberately for any number of reasons. Of course, there are other ways that registrations were compromised, as well. Just part of the house-of-cards that is the whole NFA regulatory structure.

FWIW

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You do know i was a ffl/sot for 38 years now retired right.I know all about it all and can tell you tales and stuff you would not Believe. And the guy who bought the MP-40 Was mad because the paperwork said tube by >>>>>>>and a lil small initial stamp.

 

The freaking tube original was never touched. I got involved in it when the guy wanted a refund from the guy who sold it, and i said to the new owner i will take it off your hands for the $10,000.00 I explained what it was.The receiving dealer had it in his safe. and while i waited for a answer. Supposed original buyers said to me well maybe i should keep it I went into detail with him like you did here what it was .And it was a long forgotten gun about from 1986. and the one party was already gone. I have seen much of that stuff G series from Canada and North Korean AK'S and stuff from other local's. and many Imports and screwups. And got out clean after 38 years. Some don't have a freaking clue. In the wide world of guns, all the back water deals. strange imports. And things that went on. They buy a MP-40 or a Thompson or anything class 3 read a few internet stories handle maybe ten guns of that type. And Know it all.

 

 

 

you have to love it and live it like i did for over 50 years plus. And your words on it are worth it. And glad you posted that. I will stop now before somebody might get offended that i posted anything here. However some may like this. And TO guys that know me here have a great 2021 R.K.

 

 

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  • 3 months later...

You do know i was a ffl/sot for 38 years now retired right.I know all about it all and can tell you tales and stuff you would not Believe. And the guy who bought the MP-40 Was mad because the paperwork said tube by >>>>>>>and a lil small initial stamp.

 

The freaking tube original was never touched. I got involved in it when the guy wanted a refund from the guy who sold it, and i said to the new owner i will take it off your hands for the $10,000.00 I explained what it was.The receiving dealer had it in his safe. and while i waited for a answer. Supposed original buyers said to me well maybe i should keep it I went into detail with him like you did here what it was .And it was a long forgotten gun about from 1986. and the one party was already gone. I have seen much of that stuff G series from Canada and North Korean AK'S and stuff from other local's. and many Imports and screwups. And got out clean after 38 years. Some don't have a freaking clue. In the wide world of guns, all the back water deals. strange imports. And things that went on. They buy a MP-40 or a Thompson or anything class 3 read a few internet stories handle maybe ten guns of that type. And Know it all.

 

 

 

you have to love it and live it like i did for over 50 years plus. And your words on it are worth it. And glad you posted that. I will stop now before somebody might get offended that i posted anything here. However some may like this. And TO guys that know me here have a great 2021 R.K.

 

I too have a bnz 41 that is 100% numbers matching, original C&R. It's up at John Andrewski's shop right now for some work.

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  • 3 weeks later...

https://www.mp40.nl/index.php?page=serial-database

 

After a bit of research, I found this rather voluminous registry of MP 40's that are out there. True, the content cannot be 100% validated, but I found my bnz 41 (#1159) and the data exactly matches the gun.

 

Hats off to this guy for doing this...

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And it shows that there are quite a few registered MP 40's with numbers matching. Unless you just want a shooter, then the best route of ownership is always the highest quality, meaning numbers matching. You can shoot these also!

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