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Winchester 1907 Article


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This article appeared in "Gun World" and was recently forwarded to me. Hopefully all 6 Win 351 fans will find it interesting. Jim C.................................... https://www.gunworld.com/guns/winchester-351-wsl-self-loading-rifle-the-original-police-patrol-rifle/

Edited by jim c 351
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Thanks Jim, CJL had sent me a copy also, good article. I sent it to some of my Indiana cops friends and some good feedback.

Everybody is waiting for your article on them, at least me, one of the 6. You & CJL do an article and add the gangster touch.

Just saying..........Aint getten any younger up here in the mountains.

 

OCM

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Jim, I don't think he does either, so it's great you posted it here for the rest of the 5. 6-100 are sure missing a great gun, that still can be found.

 

OCM

DSCN7917.JPG

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I find the comments on the Military Model most interesting. He mentions 15- and 20-round magazines. Apart from a single photo of a bayonet-mounting Model 1907 with a very long magazine, I've never seen any mention of those. Certainly not by British or French sources, who were the main customers of the Military Model in WWI. Would someone know? Is there more on this in the elusive Henwood book?

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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That Book case is stunning, as I remember, Henwood doesn't mention that one in his book. I've never seen one up close, looks like it holds two rifles, didn't know that. The 07 pictured is a later model Winchester I think that started in the late 40s or early 50s with the curved charging tip. ( big improvement ) .

Hans, I think I know where you're going on the extended magazines, Henwood refers to the magazines as factory Winchester 5 & 10 rd magazines. The Lebman ones recovered in Tucson show 10 rounds when captured, long gone now. I've never seen any indication that Lebman messed with magazine building. The Colt minis, I think you discovered , were Monarch, along with the Lebman builds. Since it appears that Van & Les sourced out a lot of weapons from Lebman, via Wolf & Klar, most appear to have factory magazines, but guessing mostly the 10 rd version, which would give a healthy RPM in a F/A 07. As Jim C mentioned at one time," a waste of 351 ammo probably" ( or something like that ). Gangster toys. Same with the Colt minis, but if Nelson has one, John has to have one too. Good chance Dillinger never even fired his.

 

OCM

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https://collections.centerofthewest.org/view/firearm_bayonet_rifle_semiautomatic_american_winchester_repeating_arms_co?Descriptions=takedown2&offset=24&maxOffset=25

Hans,This is probably the picture you referred to. The gun is at the Cody Museum.The magazine appears to be 2 10 rd mags spiced together. Nothing factory for sure.I can't prove but suspect that magazines over 10 rounds were not factory. If anyone would have needed such high capacity mags it would have been the French, so such mags may be French manufacture.No one in the US seems to own such a mag.The French bought both the 351 and 401 to arm airplanes and apparently these rifle are still being used by French shooters to this day.Jim C Edited by jim c 351
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That Book case is stunning, as I remember, Henwood doesn't mention that one in his book. I've never seen one up close, looks like it holds two rifles, didn't know that. The 07 pictured is a later model Winchester I think that started in the late 40s or early 50s with the curved charging tip. ( big improvement ) .

 

Yeah, that's what I thought. I think I know where he sourced the "Model 07/17" stuff -- Wikipedia. Which makes it dubious, at best.

 

Hans, I think I know where you're going on the extended magazines, Henwood refers to the magazines as factory Winchester 5 & 10 rd magazines. The Lebman ones recovered in Tucson show 10 rounds when captured, long gone now. I've never seen any indication that Lebman messed with magazine building. The Colt minis, I think you discovered , were Monarch, along with the Lebman builds. Since it appears that Van & Les sourced out a lot of weapons from Lebman, via Wolf & Klar, most appear to have factory magazines, but guessing mostly the 10 rd version, which would give a healthy RPM in a F/A 07. As Jim C mentioned at one time," a waste of 351 ammo probably" ( or something like that ). Gangster toys. Same with the Colt minis, but if Nelson has one, John has to have one too. Good chance Dillinger never even fired his.

 

Haha, yeah, I guess I have been going on and on about this ;) I have made some interesting new discoveries regarding both the Lebman Machine Pistols and the Carbines, I'll send a new draft of my article around soon.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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https://collections.centerofthewest.org/view/firearm_bayonet_rifle_semiautomatic_american_winchester_repeating_arms_co?Descriptions=takedown2&offset=24&maxOffset=25

Hans, This is probably the picture you referred to. The gun is at the Cody Museum. The magazine appears to be 2 10 rd mags spiced together. Nothing factory for sure. I can't prove but suspect that magazines over 10 rounds were not factory. If anyone would have needed such high capacity mags it would have been the French, so such mags may be French manufacture. No one in the US seems to own such a mag. The French bought both the 351 and 401 to arm airplanes and apparently these rifle are still being used by French shooters to this day. Jim C

 

Yep, that's the one. I've always thought that was dubious, but the photo you usually see is lower resolution. This one is better and clearly shows that the mag is not a factory one. Thanks for that!

 

I've been after info on the French service model(s) for some time. I've just today ordered a new book directly from France, which I'll hope will clear up some issues. At least until now, all the info I found in French-language sources concerns ordinary Model 1907s (ie, no mention of the famous full-auto weapons), and always with 10-round magazines (they even made them in France).

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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H- Let us know what you turn up. CJL has the Henwood book, but I think a lot of those guys are at the SAR show. It does refer to something about the French models, but not that I remember about an extended magazine. That photo that Jim sent , yes you can see where it was modified in the middle with a extra strap or something.

The Dillinger -Lebman 07s in Tucson, show no signs of select fire. I would image when you torched that ting off, it'd leave a rather wide pattern fast. Jim can probably speculate about that as he's the resident expert along with CJL. My Dillinger clones are extremely accurate.

 

Prost

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Number five checking in. I was going to ask about the source of info for the military version and police version as I see quite a bit of dubious information. Hans likely nailed it as wikiwork.

 

The police barrel is not a bull barrel. It is very similar in profile to factory but has been turned down on the end to accommodate the bayonet mount.

 

I like the Books case. Different from mine. Ill need to visit the ISP museum sometime.

 

Ron

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if you run into Colt Chopper at the SARS, he knows CJL, who knows a lot about the police weapons. Think they are both there -

When you go to the line at room 665, in the main area, where CC is, say you know " littleton" that's a code word to get you in . Tell Mike, his butler-man, you are here to see " Marvin Gillis"

Good luck.

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on the mags, while digging around earlier this year looking for a nice '07 to buy . I came across 15 and 20 rd mags - very suspect being cheaply blued and tinny looking.

 

 

i had it bookmarked but recently deleted a lot of them , I'll dig around to find it again. I doubt they would work .

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Hacksaw-

Like to see them. if you can send a photo. I've got a 21 rd 45 ACP magazine I got from some company, so damn cheap I would never use it, just for static display with my Lebman Colt mini.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ok, long story about the 1907 .351. This was told to me at my first or second time I went to the original TCA show in Newark at Tracie Hill’s place.

 

We were at the shoot, just finished the morning paper shoot. It was hot and as I walked by an elderly gentleman sitting in the shade, he had a photo album on the ground open in front of him. The photos had a Colt 1921 on one page and the other photo had the Thompson and a 1907.

I told him, “Hey, I’ve got one of those.” He said sarcastically, “Hell we all have a Thompson, otherwise we wouldn’t be here.” I said, “No, I have a couple of those 1907’s.” That got his attention. He perked up and said, “Let me tell you a story.” I thought great, one of those I’ve got the original 1907 Dillinger gun stories.

“I was an Indiana State Trooper in the 30’s. In, I think 35 or 36, there was some half assed gangster wannabe running around Northern Indiana. He had just robbed a bank and we heard on the radio to be on the lookout for his car. Sure as shit, about 5 minutes later, the bastard drives down MY highway. Me and my partner pull out and go to pull him over. He pulls over and jumps out and starts shooting. He shot through the windshield of the patrol car and killed my partner! I grabbed the 1907 that was in the rack. I rolled out and into the ditch. The guy jumped back in his car and started down the road. I jumped up with that 351 with a big long magazine hanging out of it. I stood there and shot all those rounds into the back of his car. It went down the road a little bit and then pulled over to the ditch. I ran down there and you know, all of those rounds went through the trunk of that car, through the backseat, through his seat and through him! I killed that son-of-a-bitch right there, because he killed my partner.”

He was a hell of I nice old guy. I wish I knew his name. And the name of the bad guy he took out in 35 or 36.

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Ok, long story about the 1907 .351. This was told to me at my first or second time I went to the original TCA show in Newark at Tracie Hill’s place.

 

We were at the shoot, just finished the morning paper shoot. It was hot and as I walked by an elderly gentleman sitting in the shade, he had a photo album on the ground open in front of him. The photos had a Colt 1921 on one page and the other photo had the Thompson and a 1907.

I told him, “Hey, I’ve got one of those.” He said sarcastically, “Hell we all have a Thompson, otherwise we wouldn’t be here.” I said, “No, I have a couple of those 1907’s.” That got his attention. He perked up and said, “Let me tell you a story.” I thought great, one of those I’ve got the original 1907 Dillinger gun stories.

“I was an Indiana State Trooper in the 30’s. In, I think 35 or 36, there was some half assed gangster wannabe running around Northern Indiana. He had just robbed a bank and we heard on the radio to be on the lookout for his car. Sure as shit, about 5 minutes later, the bastard drives down MY highway. Me and my partner pull out and go to pull him over. He pulls over and jumps out and starts shooting. He shot through the windshield of the patrol car and killed my partner! I grabbed the 1907 that was in the rack. I rolled out and into the ditch. The guy jumped back in his car and started down the road. I jumped up with that 351 with a big long magazine hanging out of it. I stood there and shot all those rounds into the back of his car. It went down the road a little bit and then pulled over to the ditch. I ran down there and you know, all of those rounds went through the trunk of that car, through the backseat, through his seat and through him! I killed that son-of-a-bitch right there, because he killed my partner.”

He was a hell of I nice old guy. I wish I knew his name. And the name of the bad guy he took out in 35 or 36.

 

Hi Mike,

 

I remember you told me that story, and I'm glad it's now shared on the forum. Maybe Tracie remembers his name...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Mike,

A really nice story and I enjoyed reading it immensely.

I do have 2 issues for further discussion.

#1,I was under the impression that in 35 -36 the Indiana state police did not have radios in patrol cars. I seem to recall that Johnny D declined to rob banks in states with radio patrol cars.

 

#2, I was unaware that the Indiana State Police adapted the 351 in that time frame.

Looking forward to further info. So----- did the ISP have radios and 351 rifles in 35-36. If not it destroyed the credibility of the teller.

 

Jim C

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From a friend of mine that's a retired Indiana State Police officer, worked for my buddy Ernie Hudson for years as his Deputy. I asked him about this, this is his response- Good story. OCM

 

The State Police museum on 21st street in Indianapolis probably has then ame of all Troopers killed in the line of duty.They used to have. They read it every year on the day of our showdown inspections. I don't know if they still do that or not.It is a place to start.The Brady gang was pretty active in Indiana at about that time?At that time troopers did not have partners,still don't.Back then one trooper might patrol 4 or 5 counties alone.They did not have radios as we know them today.They had receivers in the car.The post would put out dispatches blind ,but the trooper could not answer.Trooper had to drive until he found atelephone and then phone the post and tell dispatch he heard the dispatch and get the rest of the details.Then that trooper MIGHT be 5 counties away from the incident.
My father was a deputy in about 1944 and even then he did not have a 2 way radio,just a receiver.

I don't know when the state Police issued the 351's but by 1960 they had quit doing so.Some of the old guys still had them in 60 but they called all of them in in about 1962 or so.

So there are some holes in the story but it may well have happened.Best I can do..

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Trooper killed in 1933

https://www.odmp.org/officer/13156-trooper-eugene-teague

 

Trooper killed in 1937

https://www.odmp.org/officer/9407-trooper-paul-vincent-minneman

 

Indiana State Troopers killed in the line of duty
https://www.odmp.org/agency/1794-indiana-state-police-indiana

 

From what I found online, no ISP deaths in 1934 or 1935.

Edited by Bridgeport28A1
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Jim,

Here's a photo of Matt Leach's car, don't see any radio type equipment on it. From my experience, most of the 1930s police used Call Boxes . A common one was the Gamewell Call Box. One of my Indiana retired cop Pals still has the key to one and had used one a number of years ago. The police could receive a signal, sometimes on a red light above the box, to call in.

The cop would open the box and crank a handle and talk directly to the Police station.

They may have, but I don't recal,l hearing of two way communications, used commonly in police cars. Lot the the cops in those days supplied their own weapons.

I'm guessing the two way communications became more standard in the 50s.

 

OCM

Leach's car.jpg

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