Jump to content

About Military Model of 1923


Recommended Posts

Hello everyone! Interested in information on the Thompson M1923. Who has any other photos? Maybe tell me a book about a detailed description?

As far as I know, M1923 was presented to the US Army, there was also M1923 for France and the mysterious M1923 for China.


Thanks


1) M1923 US Army


2RPTcyJTMI4.jpg


0JT-rfOka8E.jpg

EobA-oAoK4Y.jpg


6xNdUFYWxS4.jpg




2) M1923 French Variant


lidyJ2AP0OQ.jpg

8b3kcN4QU-I.jpg


3) M1923 Chines Variant


VzmP6Rdk3WY.jpg


yAMOKLZ5tNQ.jpg


4) .45 Remington-Thompson


CqonkTfRMmY.jpg

Edited by allweaponsww2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

allweaponsww2,

Great questions. May I suggest, The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill and An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun, by me.

 

There is another Model of 1923 located in Petersburg, Russia at the Artillery Museum - NO 1605. I attempted to verify its existence and obtain pictures from the museum staff for inclusion in my book. The museum staff did verify its existence but said pictures would cost $500. The price was too high for niche books on machine guns. However, I did reference it and another Model of 1923 from France in my book.

 

Since your in Russia, you have the ability to add to the knowledge of the few known Model of 1923s by visiting this museum and taking a few pictures. I do not know if it is on display but I have heard the museum has approximately 10 Colt's Thompson in inventory. Perhaps, you could find out what is at the museum. Pictures are a must, especially close-ups of the Model of 1923.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

allweaponsww2,

Great questions. May I suggest, The Ultimate Thompson Book, by Tracie Hill and An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun, by me.

 

There is another Model of 1923 located in Petersburg, Russia at the Artillery Museum - NO 1605. I attempted to verify its existence and obtain pictures from the museum staff for inclusion in my book. The museum staff did verify its existence but said pictures would cost $500. The price was too high for niche books on machine guns. However, I did reference it and another Model of 1923 from France in my book.

 

Since your in Russia, you have the ability to add to the knowledge of the few known Model of 1923s by visiting this museum and taking a few pictures. I do not know if it is on display but I have heard the museum has approximately 10 Colt's Thompson in inventory. Perhaps, you could find out what is at the museum. Pictures are a must, especially close-ups of the Model of 1923.

 

Thank you, these books will already be read by me inappropriately.
I’m also going to go to the Artillery Museum in St. Petersburg, there is definitely something to see and photograph from a weapon. Now I know that there is a rare model of 1923 and I will make the photo the same.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I recall from talking to Doug, one of the most fascinating aspect of the M1923

Is that Auto-Ordnance was able to get Remingtom to manufacture ammo for a gun

that did not yet exist, and only a handful of guns were ever made. I will give Doug

a call - this is one of his favorite topics - a see what he can add to the conversation.

I know years back on one of his trips to Europe he tried to track down the M1923's.

Does the West Point museum have one? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I recall from talking to Doug, one of the most fascinating aspect of the M1923

Is that Auto-Ordnance was able to get Remingtom to manufacture ammo for a gun

that did not yet exist, and only a handful of guns were ever made. I will give Doug

a call - this is one of his favorite topics - a see what he can add to the conversation.

I know years back on one of his trips to Europe he tried to track down the M1923's.

Does the West Point museum have one? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

Bob

 

I hope everything is fine with Doug Richards, there is no information on this forum about how he is now ..
Interestingly, the new cartridge is more powerful than the .45 ACP, which actually equates the M1923 with assault rifles.
If you find out something else, write here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I recall from talking to Doug, one of the most fascinating aspect of the M1923

Is that Auto-Ordnance was able to get Remingtom to manufacture ammo for a gun

that did not yet exist, and only a handful of guns were ever made. I will give Doug

a call - this is one of his favorite topics - a see what he can add to the conversation.

I know years back on one of his trips to Europe he tried to track down the M1923's.

Does the West Point museum have one? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

Bob

On my nest trip to visit my son and the grandkids at West Point I will check the museum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pictures of the Military Model Thompson in the Russian museum:

Display 1923.jpg

 

M1923 Russia.jpg

 

 

and one from the Royal Danish Arsenal museum:

 

M1923.jpg

 

Same example shown as French variant in post above.

 

Finally, another picture I have on file, possibly downloaded from this forum in the past, apparently showing a demonstration of a Military Model to the Peruvian President Augusto Leguia.

1923 Demo Leguia Pres Peru 1923.jpg

 

Stay safe

Richard

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Richard,

Thank you for posting pictures of the Model of 1923 in Russia. I believe the serial number is NO 1605, but I would like to verify that - with pictures! Perhaps, allweaponsww2 can translate the captions and obtain some close-up pictures, including the number of the C drum.

 

I am also curious as to what this is on the right side of the receiver nose - see green arrow. Deactivation

 

M1923 Russia with arrow.jpg

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Richard,

Thank you for posting pictures of the Model of 1923 in Russia. I believe the serial number is NO 1605, but I would like to verify that - with pictures! Perhaps, allweaponsww2 can translate the captions and obtain some close-up pictures, including the number of the C drum.

 

I am also curious as to what this is on the right side of the receiver nose - see green arrow. Deactivation

 

attachicon.gif M1923 Russia with arrow.jpg

 

Well spotted Tom,

I would agree with you, it does look like some form of deactivation process.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good day. I am also interested in the topic M1923. Are there any factory drawings for this model?

 

There are no factory drawings that I am aware of, but the actual weapon was built on a 'Model of 1921' receiver, with just a change of barrel and furniture I believe.

 

In a copy of Pacific Arms Corporation catalogue from the 1920's that I have in my collection, I note they are actually promoting the Military Model, below the Model of 1921, see photo below:

 

Pacific Arms ad.jpeg

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are no factory drawings available that I am aware of. If any drawing of the modifications exist, I would guess they would be part of the Oscar Payne Collection, now a part of the Thompson Reference Collection maintained by Tracie Hill. I cover this modification in my book, An Amateur's Guide for the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun, and include several pages from the very rare 1923 Auto-Ordnance Price List. The commonly found reproduction 1923 Auto-Ordnance catalog is a good starting point for the study of this Thompson variation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Richard,

Thank you for posting pictures of the Model of 1923 in Russia. I believe the serial number is NO 1605, but I would like to verify that - with pictures! Perhaps, allweaponsww2 can translate the captions and obtain some close-up pictures, including the number of the C drum.

 

I am also curious as to what this is on the right side of the receiver nose - see green arrow. Deactivation

 

attachicon.gif M1923 Russia with arrow.jpg

 

Ok it was Russian magazine - Orugie 4/2002 (Оружие 2/2002). I have 12 pages - this is an article about Thompson. The author - Yegor Pulemetchikov. The article is large, I translated only the part about Model 1923 as a whole, nothing new and unusual:

"Following the M1921 was the Military Model of 1923. The barrel was smooth without radiator fins. The length of the barrel increased from 267 to 362 mm. A horizontal grip appeared instead of the vertical handle. Buttstock again (?) became removable. An oiler was located at the base of the gun butt.
Sometimes a light bipod was added. The weapon fired a new .45 Remington-Thompson cartridge. 435 rounds per minute, at a range of 650 yards.
This Gun was demonstrated personally to the President of Peru, Augusto Legua, but no orders were received."
wIH8PxV_ZvU.jpg
HyNStr9ogls.jpg
KTeOyfFmZ7I.jpg
swCNUnS8y1I.jpg
GBrx_9iyAys.jpg
j69qbb8I1wM.jpg
rOe2G9rMhzc.jpg
5_9Xduef4Lw.jpg
lL-cd44KPnU.jpg
xPe_PvgaZCM.jpg
hmVdvJLwErQ.jpg
vFkNB2FxHXY.jpg
1FIBE3zw1oA.jpg
  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for posting the article, interesting picture on the bottom of page 55, is that a cheek cover for cold weather?

 

My translator give me "Tommy Gun with a pillow", regardless, it is something else to look out for, to add to the collection.

 

 

оставаться в безопасности

 

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you allweaponsww2. I knew about this magazine and had a few pictures of the inside pages but not the page with the picture or information about the Model of 1923. I would guess this is NO 1605, the Model of 1923 at the Artillery Museum in Petersburg. And I thought a picture of the Model of 1923 in Russia had not been published! It would be great if you could visit the museum sometime and obtain some pictures of the left side receiver with the serial number and nomenclature markings. The museum sent me a postage stamp size picture of the gun from the left size with a price of $500 for larger pictures. While very difficult to view because of the small size, the Model of 1923 appears to show a lot of bluing wear on the left size.

 

There has been a lot of misinformation published about the Thompson gun over the years. I have noted in the USA, magazines tend to re-publish the same information, whether correct or not, over and over again. While all stories have some value, especially if with new pictures, if you are serious about studying the history of the Thompson gun, I would search out the best current reference books on the subject.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for posting the article, interesting picture on the bottom of page 55, is that a cheek cover for cold weather?

 

My translator give me "Tommy Gun with a pillow", regardless, it is something else to look out for, to add to the collection.

 

 

оставаться в безопасности

 

Richard

 

It says there were innovations for the Model of 1928 US Navy in 1928. An additional option, in the form of a tarpaulin pillow for comfortable shooting ...

Edited by allweaponsww2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Thanks for posting the article, interesting picture on the bottom of page 55, is that a cheek cover for cold weather?

 

My translator give me "Tommy Gun with a pillow", regardless, it is something else to look out for, to add to the collection.

 

 

оставаться в безопасности

 

Richard

 

It says there were innovations for the Model of 1928 US Navy in 1928. An additional option, in the form of a tarpaulin pillow for comfortable shooting ...

 

Thank you for that translation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Today, I have just received a magazine from France, which has an extensive section on the Thompson, all models covered in 50+ pages, including a page on the M1923.

 

img016.jpg img017 (2).jpg

 

This example, S/N 3075, is still in France, part of the collection of the technical section of the French Army, from one of the pictures you can see that markings on the military model were not modified or stamped over, as the US Navy Model of 1928 and the Model of 1927 were.

 

Referring to Gordon Herigstad's 'Colt Thompson Serials Numbers and histories', I find 3075 listed as a Model of 1922, not a model of 1923. The entry adds that the only other known Model of 1922, S/N 3079, is located at the West Point Army academy Museum. However, on page 12, Gordon contradicts himself stating that another Model of 1922 is located at the Artillery Museum in St Petersburg, S/N 1605.

 

This reminds me that I have read that the Military Model was never referred to as Model 1922 or 1923 in any AOC literature, and that these designations have been adopted by authors and collectors over the years, please correct me if I am wrong. As I understand it, the Military Model was like the Model of 1919, an evolution of design, hence the different variations, as AOC tried to find a market for the stock of Model of 1921's stored in Hartford, Connecticut.

 

Stay safe

Richard

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The short lived "Military Model" and "Short Barrel Model" were featured in what is referred to by collectors as the 1923 catalog because it is titled on the inside cover, "Thompson Guns, Models 1291 - 1923." And features the "Military Model" and "Short Barrel Model." Original 1923 Auto-Ordnance catalogs are extremely rare. There is also an extremely rare 1923 Auto-Ordnance Price List that features both of these models but the name "Military Model" has been changed to "Thompson Gun with Bipod." All of this experimentation was designed to convert thousands of Thompson guns in stock to a saleable product. In conjunction with the experimentation by Auto-Ordnance in modifying the Model of 1921 Thompson guns was the introduction of the new .45 caliber Remington-Thompson cartridge. I have a chapter on the Model of 1923 Thompson gun in my newest book.

 

The term Model of 1922 was first used by Doug Richardson in an attempt to explain the differences between the surviving modified guns made by Auto-Ordnance. Gordon Herigstad picked up the nomenclature from Doug and used it in his series of books, Colt Thompson Serial Numbers. There is no Model of 1922 mentioned anywhere in known AOC literature. However, those with a copy of The Ultimate Thompson Book can turn to page 821 and see the "Model F of 1922."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The short lived "Military Model" and "Short Barrel Model" were featured in what is referred to by collectors as the 1923 catalog because it is titled on the inside cover, "Thompson Guns, Models 1291 - 1923." And features the "Military Model" and "Short Barrel Model." Original 1923 Auto-Ordnance catalogs are extremely rare. There is also an extremely rare 1923 Auto-Ordnance Price List that features both of these models but the name "Military Model" has been changed to "Thompson Gun with Bipod." All of this experimentation was designed to convert thousands of Thompson guns in stock to a saleable product. In conjunction with the experimentation by Auto-Ordnance in modifying the Model of 1921 Thompson guns was the introduction of the new .45 caliber Remington-Thompson cartridge. I have a chapter on the Model of 1923 Thompson gun in my newest book.

 

The term Model of 1922 was first used by Doug Richardson in an attempt to explain the differences between the surviving modified guns made by Auto-Ordnance. Gordon Herigstad picked up the nomenclature from Doug and used it in his series of books, Colt Thompson Serial Numbers. There is no Model of 1922 mentioned anywhere in known AOC literature. However, those with a copy of The Ultimate Thompson Book can turn to page 821 and see the "Model F of 1922."

 

Tom,

Thank you for that timely explanation.

 

Co-incidentally I have just been browsing the chapters on the Model of 1923 in both your 'Amateurs Guide to the Colt's Thompson Submachine Gun and also 'Tracie's The Ultimate Thompson book'. I note that both the 'Gazette des Armes' article and 'TUTB', state that S/N 3075 was chambered for the Winchester .351 self-loading rifle cartridge.

 

On another point, I note in the 'TUTB', Tracie has identified the US 'Soldier' posing with Model of 1923 in the fist photo in this topic, George E Goll.

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello All - I just had a long talk with Doug Richardson, who as many of us know was very interested

in the M1923 Thompson (as well as other models) and on one or his trips to Europe devoted a lot of

time attempting to track down the M1923.

 

First of all, it seems that there are two separate guns here being described as the M1923. The M1923

gun is the gun pictured in the M1923 catalog with a Hotchkiss bipod mounted about 3" behind the muzzle,

and an "in line" buttstock..

 

The other gun, which Doug refers to as the M1922 has a Colt R75 bipod mounted to the barrel right

at the muzzle, and has a standard M1928 buttstock.

 

Clearly the two guns are different so i can see why he chose the give them different model numbers.

 

After extensive research Doug determined that no M1923 Thompsons were ever made and that the

gun in the photo is a mock-up. There are no photos of the gun being fired. He also concluded that only

two guns were ever actually chambered for the .45 Remington cartridge - both of the M1922 configuration.

He tracked these guns down, one being in Florida and one in Illinois. Only two "in-line" stocks are known

to exist -one found in Denmark, one lost in Texas. The M1923 shown in the catalog was broken down and

sold as parts. It is unlikely that this would have been done if it was a working gun.

 

He says the M1923 model was made up for the catalog but was not a term actually used by Auto-Ordnance.

Auto-Ordnance started referring to various "military" models - military model, heavy barrel, extra heavy barrel,

etc.

 

Doug has in his possession, and for sale, an original Thompson M1922/23 barrel with the trunnion to mount

the bipod because back in the day he was thinking of making the barrels. He did not say what the price was.

 

So, that's the report from Doug/Belize.

 

Bob

Edited by reconbob
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello All.Clearly the two guns are different so i can see why he chose the give them different model numbers.

 

Bob,

I am glad Doug is doing well in Belize. We do miss him in the USA.

 

The problem I have with Doug's designation of the "Model of 1922" is it is Doug's designation; not a designation from anyone at Auto-Ordnance Corporation in the 1920's. Those new to the Thompson community can easily misconstrue this Model of 1922 designation as a real Thompson variation. It is not. When Gordon started using Doug's nomenclature in his books, the problem was compounded.

 

For the record, there was no real standardization of the Model of 1923 Thompson Gun or the Military Model or the Thompson Gun with Bipod or whatever you wish to call these experimental guns. Most importantly, those three names can be found in known Auto-Ordnance literature. Only a few of these guns were produced (from existing Model of 1921s) and most are different in one or more respects. Auto-Ordnance was looking for a configuration and caliber that would sell. This did not happen and the program was abandoned according to George Goll. Creating a new model designation out of a few experimental guns that garnered no support in the marketplace and is not supported by known documentation is very misleading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Tom -

 

Yes, I am only the messenger. I think Doug used the "M1922" designation because - according to his research -

the first long/heavy barrel/bipod gun was assembled in 1922. Doug has in his possession (in California, not Belize) a great

deal of original Auto-Ordnance documents. To what extent these documents have influenced his conclusions I cannot say.

 

Also to consider is that Doug's research is, by now, 30+ years old. Now, does this make it "better" because he was closer

in time to events? Certainly new discoveries can alter what has always been considered "the facts" which makes the whole

thing more interesting.

 

Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bob,

I applaud Doug's research efforts. This is a subject where there is very little information. If not for Bill Helmer's interview with George Goll in the 1960's, there would be a lot less information. Helmer referred to this Thompson variation as the Model 1923 several times in his now classic book, The Gun That Made The Twenties Roar. Obviously, Helmer repeated the term used by the many people he interviewed. My only issue is when Doug created a new Thompson model designation that is not supported by known documentation - something Doug's admits in his story. I agree with Doug about the differences between the few surviving variations. Auto-Ordnance was trying to make a salable product from a warehouse full of thousands of unsold guns. They obviously overestimated the market in 1921. This effort failed. To that end, I would like to know more about Doug's research that indicated or showed the first of these variations were created in 1922. Doug never cites any documentation or self-authenticates this statement in his story. If Doug will show the Thompson community or cite any documentation involving the construction of this model in the year 1922, he will go along way to convincing me there is merit to his theory.

 

I would guess (not state as fact) that the failure of this program by Auto-Ordnance is why none of the original nomenclature markings were changed on the altered guns. It is noteworthy the nomenclature markings were changed on the future Model of 1927 Semi-Automatic Carbine, a somewhat successful modification of the still many thousands of unsold guns at Hartford. But I do enjoy the discussion. Many of my stories are the result of information posted on this great forum!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello everyone! Until I was not in the Museum of Artillery in St. Petersburg. I will post the report of the Soviet general - Blagonravov. In 1940-45, he published several books on small arms, which are popular and have historical interest in Russia (probably like Hatcher's Notebook in the USA).


The book published in 1945 contains 850 pages describing various weapons. So there is a detailed description of the Model of 1923.

I can assume that this model is located in the Museum.


wboKnbi9Dwc.jpg


Hz2eu6Rgzz8.jpg


UpADzC-uUz8.jpg


fPAW1_uKdr4.jpg


zmddJm2bFS4.jpg


8q6h9Pyq0Vg.jpg


IeXMtHtMzRU.jpg


aE11GggGzXE.jpg


HU_YxF43YS8.jpg


NEuVwVqDV2Q.jpg

Edited by allweaponsww2
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...