'The St. Valentine's Day Massacre' playing now on FX

[pstidan]

Plenty of 1921 Thompson action

Edited February 15, 2020 by pstidan

[Gio]

Thanks for posting. Enjoyed seeing this movie again its been awhile. Good way to spend a rainy day.

 

 

Frank

[ppgcowboy]

What is F

[Tiz]

Yea, what is F?

[Ron Mills]

Maybe it stands for Foney...1000 round drums, 2 of them no less. A little humor there.

[John Dillinger]

From my collection a 1940's/1950's St Valentine's Day Massacre press reproduction photograph when a Sunday newspaper ran a two column story of the event and in the second original press photograph dated 16th December 1929 weapons seized from Fred 'Killer' Burke following his murder of police officer in St Joseph MI.

Note the 2 Thompsons in the photograph were later identified by ballistics expert Calvin Goddard to be the ones used in the St Valentine's Day Massacre.

Edited February 2, 2020 by John Dillinger

[Gio]

The chennel was FX

 

 

Frank

[pstidan]

Yea, what is F?

The title was clipped. I have no clue why. Anyway, I was trying to say that the movie was on the FX Movie Channel. They're playing it again right now.

[pstidan]

It's on again! 'The Saint Valentine's Day Massacre' starts at 9:15 am eastern. That's in one minute on FX HD.

Edited February 15, 2020 by pstidan

[Tiz]

AAAAAAAAAHHHH. I missed it.

[The1930sRust]

[2ndArmored]

You just beat me.

 

[gijive]

AAAAAAAAAHHHH. I missed it.

Buy the DVD, then you can watch it whenever you want.

 

https://www.amazon.com/St-Valentines-Massacre-Jason-Robards/dp/B000EHSVRI/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=st.+valentine%27s+day+massacre&qid=1581865951&sr=8-1

[RogerD]

Interesting video of the Thompsons used in the Chicago massacre and their history. The video is about a year old with 2k views.

 

I am unable to copy and paste the youtube feed so check out High Caliber History LLC.

[ppgcowboy]

So who writes the copy for these experts on YouTube. In the video the host states that 6 of the 7 averaged 12 bullet holes, and one of the 7 was shot 22 times, he also states the Thompson's shot a total of 70 rounds. Really? I am no expert but.........

[gijive]

So who writes the copy for these experts on YouTube. In the video the host states that 6 of the 7 averaged 12 bullet holes, and one of the 7 was shot 22 times, he also states the Thompson's shot a total of 70 rounds. Really? I am no expert but.........

ppgcowboy,

 

The autopsy reports indicate that the victims suffered several gunshot wounds that were a result of ricochets and fragmented steel jackets from the bullets. In other words, many superficial wounds in addition to the actual bullet holes. Two of the victims suffered pellet wounds from two expended 00 buckshot rounds which may account for the 22 wounds on one of the victims. I haven't studied the autopsy documents for some time, but may dig them out just to refresh my memory.

 

I believe the seventy expended bullet total is accurate. Fifty expended shell casings were identified by Calvin Goddard as being from one gun, indicating a fifty round drum. Twenty expended shell casings were identified as coming from a different gun, indicating a twenty-round box magazine. Many critics dispute this theory believing that several hundred rounds were fired. I tend to believe the expert's opinion, Calvin Goddard.

Edited February 24, 2020 by gijive

[ppgcowboy]

I thought they were meaning from the Thompson's the math did not add up. I guess I was going by the Hollywood version. I plead ignorance. Edited February 24, 2020 by ppgcowboy

[HANS]

 

So who writes the copy for these experts on YouTube. In the video the host states that 6 of the 7 averaged 12 bullet holes, and one of the 7 was shot 22 times, he also states the Thompson's shot a total of 70 rounds. Really? I am no expert but.........

ppgcowboy,

 

The autopsy reports indicate that the victims suffered several gunshot wounds that were a result of ricochets and fragmented steel jackets from the bullets. In other words, many superficial wounds in addition to the actual bullet holes. Two of the victims suffered pellet wounds from two expended 00 buckshot rounds which may account for the 22 wounds on one of the victims. I haven't studied the autopsy documents for some time, but may dig them out just to refresh my memory.

 

I believe the seventy expended bullet total is accurate. Fifty expended shell casings were identified by Calvin Goddard as being from one gun, indicating a fifty round drum. Twenty expended shell casings were identified as coming from a different gun, indicating a twenty-round box magazine. Many critics dispute this theory believing that several hundred rounds were fired. I tend to believe the expert's opinion, Calvin Goddard.

 

I am one of those critics, as you know While the Thompson issue is still up for discussion, I think, the shotgun wounds are clearer -- only Schwimmer was shot with a shotgun, he got two loads in the back, 16 pellets in all. Most sources claim that May was also shot with a shotgun, because his skull was so obviously blown apart, but the autopsy did not find buck in his head, only a "steel jacket bullet found lying loose within the remaining part of the skull."

Interestingly, though, the buckshot is not all that clear either. Goddard mentioned 40-grain pellets, which would be #1 buck, which was loaded 16 pellets to a 12-gauge 2.75" shell at the time. However, he also claimed that the spent shells held 12 pellets each, which in turn would suggest #0 buck, at 49 grains. The photographic evidence, however, suggests that the recovered pellets were #00, at 54 grains and 9 pellets per shot. So which was it? To my mind, #00 buck would be the most likely, since I can measure the recovered pellets. It also makes the most sense when you look at the wound pattern -- Schwimmer was shot twice (9x2=18 pellets), and 16 hit him. Makes sense, right? This, however, then means that Goddard was wrong (twice!) in claiming that the pellets massed 40 grains and that the shells held 12 pellets each. This is just one of those small details that shook my previously firm belief in Goddard and his findings.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[gijive]

 

 

So who writes the copy for these experts on YouTube. In the video the host states that 6 of the 7 averaged 12 bullet holes, and one of the 7 was shot 22 times, he also states the Thompson's shot a total of 70 rounds. Really? I am no expert but.........

ppgcowboy,

 

The autopsy reports indicate that the victims suffered several gunshot wounds that were a result of ricochets and fragmented steel jackets from the bullets. In other words, many superficial wounds in addition to the actual bullet holes. Two of the victims suffered pellet wounds from two expended 00 buckshot rounds which may account for the 22 wounds on one of the victims. I haven't studied the autopsy documents for some time, but may dig them out just to refresh my memory.

 

I believe the seventy expended bullet total is accurate. Fifty expended shell casings were identified by Calvin Goddard as being from one gun, indicating a fifty round drum. Twenty expended shell casings were identified as coming from a different gun, indicating a twenty-round box magazine. Many critics dispute this theory believing that several hundred rounds were fired. I tend to believe the expert's opinion, Calvin Goddard.

 

I am one of those critics, as you know While the Thompson issue is still up for discussion, I think, the shotgun wounds are clearer -- only Schwimmer was shot with a shotgun, he got two loads in the back, 16 pellets in all. Most sources claim that May was also shot with a shotgun, because his skull was so obviously blown apart, but the autopsy did not find buck in his head, only a "steel jacket bullet found lying loose within the remaining part of the skull."

Interestingly, though, the buckshot is not all that clear either. Goddard mentioned 40-grain pellets, which would be #1 buck, which was loaded 16 pellets to a 12-gauge 2.75" shell at the time. However, he also claimed that the spent shells held 12 pellets each, which in turn would suggest #0 buck, at 49 grains. The photographic evidence, however, suggests that the recovered pellets were #00, at 54 grains and 9 pellets per shot. So which was it? To my mind, #00 buck would be the most likely, since I can measure the recovered pellets. It also makes the most sense when you look at the wound pattern -- Schwimmer was shot twice (9x2=18 pellets), and 16 hit him. Makes sense, right? This, however, then means that Goddard was wrong (twice!) in claiming that the pellets massed 40 grains and that the shells held 12 pellets each. This is just one of those small details that shook my previously firm belief in Goddard and his findings.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

My conclusion that two people were hit by shotgun pellets was based on memory. Hans is a very good researcher and I agree that Reinhart Scwimmer was the only person probably hit with the shotgun pellets. Schwimmer was on the far right and John May was to his left. I also agree that the damage to May's skull was not caused by a shotgun blast as popular lore would have it, but a .45 caliber round that struck the back of his head at somewhat of an angle and took the left side of his skull off. There is no mention of "powder stippling" , or "tattooing" on May's face or head which would have been present from a shot gun blast fired at his head at close range while he was down.

 

Hans and I disagree on the number of .45 caliber bullets fired, but that is okay, we can agree to disagree.

[HANS]

Hans and I disagree on the number of .45 caliber bullets fired, but that is okay, we can agree to disagree.

 

 

Absolutely! All of these gangster stories happend so long ago, it is impossible to know anything for sure. Still, it's fun to speculate and I've found that many "known truths" are not actually correct once you look deeper. This one, though, is particularily hard to crack unless we get more data to work off (I've heard a private collector has Goddard's archives, which may still hold some clues). One of the best resources, the original Coroner's report held in Chicago, is both fragmentary and extremely rambling. Goddard's articles are problematic as well, they certainly don't hold up to modern standards (no wonder, after all Goddard as one of the pioneers of ballistics basically developed the standards as he went!). As you can tell, I like to talk about this

 

Cheers

 

HANS

[wolfie]

john may was hit with a 45 round in the back and as he went down one hit him in the head thus causing all the damage you see in the picture. if you look at the wall in front of him there is splatter from the head wound.