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Question about what this document means regarding Transferee?

Ingram M6 Police Ordnance M6 SMG

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#1 tom silver

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 06:38 PM

Tomorrow my Ingram M6 Police arrives at my local gun store and I am excited to see it. This store sells silencers but they have never conducted a transfer of a machine gun or SMG. This worries me a bit. The Auction house that I got the SMG from sent me a document from ATF and in it is stated that the Transferee is the Gun Store that they are sending it to. It appears to be Transferred in the name of the new retail gun store? So to me, that kind of seems like now they own my M6?

This form says 

Application for Tax-Exempt Transfer of Firearm and Registration to Special Occupational Taxpayer.  Form OMB No 1140—13 (01/31/2011) does any one know what this means please? 

 

What does this mean?

Thanks 

Tom 

 

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#2 StrangeRanger

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 07:50 PM

Any interstate transfer has to be to an SOT. The SOT will transfer it to you. As far as BATF is concerned the SOT is currently the legal owner.
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#3 tom silver

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 08:25 PM

If the SOT is the legal owner, what's to prevent them from saying they own it and I don't???


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#4 tom silver

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 08:26 PM

Any interstate transfer has to be to an SOT. The SOT will transfer it to you. As far as BATF is concerned the SOT is currently the legal owner.

If the SOT is the owner as far as the BATF is concerned, what's to stop them from saying they own it and I don't later on??


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#5 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 08:34 PM

A minor correction: Registration under BATF+E/NFA regulations does not confer ownership. ATF has no authority concerning ownership of registered NFA.

An SOT to whom a transferring MG is registered does not "own" the MG. He is only the registrant. Ownership is conferred by payment for the purchase the MG. The person to whom the MG was sold, bequeathed, or otherwise is designated the "owner" through specific payment or legal documentation does not lose ownership when the MG temporarily transfers to an SOT in his state of residence for subsequent transfer to him. FWIW


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#6 tom silver

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 08:57 PM

thanks a lot. I really much better knowing that the SOT cannot take ownership.


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#7 huggytree

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Posted 13 January 2021 - 11:05 PM

Your dealer probably already has it for sale. Have you checked GB!
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#8 tom silver

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 08:50 AM

Your dealer probably already has it for sale. Have you checked GB!

very funny


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#9 Black River Militaria CII

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 09:22 AM

You laugh and mock the misfortune of others,  but sadly, crooked dealers have sold MGs on their books that did not belong to them. This has happened with MGs in estates where a co-owner in a gun business with an SOT passed away and the other co-owner sold the MGs on their books that belonged to the deceased. Also know of several situations where a transferee waiting on an approval passed away and the dealer sold the MG without the knowledge of the family. This info is anecdotal and we know about it because the executors of the dead transferees followed up on the thefts, but the co-owner thief got away with it. I knew the co-owner whose MGs were stolen by his former business partner. This was many years ago but there have been another example or two since. Lesson to be learned. FWIW


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#10 TSMGguy

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 12:00 PM

You laugh and mock the misfortune of others...  

 

Yeah. Really bad form.


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#11 StrangeRanger

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 12:31 PM

There are two paperwork trails. The BATF paperwork and the commercial paperwork. Your bill of sale and whatever paperwork the seller has retained will establish your ownership claim. BATF doesn't have anything to do with those, they only know whose name is on the current Form. If you have no bill of sale and you have an unscrupulous dealer then things could get messy
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#12 ron_brock

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 01:39 PM

Your dealer probably already has it for sale. Have you checked GB!

Just remember at one time not that long ago you were the new guy that asked a million newbie questions, yet the group here took time to answer them, regardless of how easy they were.

Not to say what you said cannot happen, but Bob gave the right answer to help a newbie understand the process.


Ron
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#13 tom silver

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 01:41 PM

thanks


Edited by tom silver, 14 January 2021 - 02:54 PM.

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#14 dalbert

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 02:04 PM

Tom,

No one is putting you down. The really bad form comment was directed to another member who posted in this thread, joking about how your dealer could potentially have the item posted on GB. That comment was not directed towards you.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com
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#15 tom silver

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 02:53 PM

thanks


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#16 Bartlow

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 04:41 PM

I feel compelled to put in my two cents even though others have offered good input.

 

Especially given the prices of machine guns, there is a lot of trust in others required to buy machine guns. The gun will be registered to other parties as the gun gets to you, the final/actual buyer. Those people have the ability to take advantage of their temporary possession of the gun. It doesn't happen a lot, but it can, and it does happen once in a while. Pick your local dealer carefully. Buy from a trustworthy source. Ideally you wouldn't have to pay for the gun until ATF had approved the transfer, so you know the gun exists and is not going to be transferred to anyone else after you paid. But the machine gun market with a very limited supply and plenty of demand lets sellers dictate the terms, so payment up front on trust is the norm.

 

As others noted, ATF registration is not about ownership, it is about legal possession. Who "owns" it is a function of who paid for it and who has the right to control its destiny. Often the legal owner and possessor are the same, but when an NFA gun is moving to a new owner they are not. Contracts can help here. Being confident that the parties you are doing business with are trustworthy also goes a long way.

 

One final suggestion. If you are thinking you like or are going to buy more machine guns that are also considered curios or relics (like an Ingram M6) you can eliminate having to use a local dealer buy getting a curio/relic FFL. The holder of a c&r ffl can get the gun direct from an out of state seller, like the auction house you bought the gun from. You still have to do a transfer form, still have to pay the transfer tax (unless the gun is deactivated) but you eliminate having to use a local dealer and trust that he or she is honest and will take care of your gun while they have it.


Edited by Bartlow, 14 January 2021 - 04:44 PM.

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#17 huggytree

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 04:59 PM

The correct answer was already given. I was just having some fun. Thats part of what were all here for! to have some fun!

 

Serious response now--- Look over your application VERY closely! look for errors. I swear my dealer has screwed up 33% of my transfers for all kinds of reasons and I never look them over. For some reason i continue to use her too (she is a good person).  Wrong zip code, wrong barrel length, etc.  The worst was when she clicked YES for all the Criminal responses on the back. on THREE FORMS she did at the same time....when you screw up that badly the form doesnt just go back for corrections, its declined..you start over...luckily it was an Inspector ive dealt with multiple times and she cut me a break. I had to resubmit and she jumped me ahead of the pile. Stil took 2 months, but better than 6!.

 

Strongly recommend getting a C&R.  Its dirt cheap and can save you $ and time.

 

If you plan on buying a ton more i strongly recommend getting your FFL and buy samples. I regret not going that direction early on. Im moving that direction right now and have been selling a few of my guns off. Good news is if you buy smart you wont ever loose money in this hobby.


Edited by huggytree, 14 January 2021 - 05:02 PM.

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#18 Got Uzi

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 06:40 PM

Good luck with getting your FFL just to buy cheaper machine guns.....yeah ATF really cracks on that behavior.

This, sadly, goes to show your complete lack of understanding of the entire FFL/SOT process and along with the fact of helping someone to get into hot water with the ATF. For you to openly suggest that on an open forum, to lead someone on with such distain, furthermore proves you incompetence on the subject matter at hand.

We all know dealers have sold guns that were on the books as repairs or brokering them when not in hand yet, but your complete lack of self control to resist the urge to be a smart ass has shown to be in extremely bad taste.

Rant over.....Im out.....
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#19 huggytree

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 07:58 PM

Whatever

Im getting my ffl for a business plan. Im not getting an sot at the moment

Edited by huggytree, 14 January 2021 - 08:00 PM.

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#20 Got Uzi

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Posted 14 January 2021 - 08:46 PM

Huggy.....you might want to check yourself at the door as you are losing friends, ground, and credibility at this point. Sure hope any potential clients dont frequent this forum and see the level of jackass they are dealing with.

Btw whatever is a great response.....for a 13 year old girl in the mid 90s.....reminded me of a response from the show Full House.....HOW WUDE
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