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Eagle Gun Company Mk. II


HistorianInProgress
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First, I apologize if this is the wrong forum. I'm not sure where to put it but this seems the most accurate.

 

I have the option to buy an Eagle Gun Company Mk II and have heard from looking through other websites (gun forums, Rock Island Auction, etc...) that it technically is not listed as an NFA item and is therefore a title 1 weapon. But before I bought it I figured I'd double check here to see if anyone knew something I don't.

 

Thanks for your time

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Thanks, dalbert! Sure thing. This isn't the exact one I'm buying but it appears to be the essentially same.

 

What I've already read is they were made from about 1964 to 67 or 68 by a company in Stratford CT, are open bolt, and appear to be based on (or have a few similarities with) the M3 Grease Gun. In 67 or 68 they went out of business ( I've heard some stories that their factory burned down along with their records) and sold their tooling, schematics, etc... to another company who began building functionally identical, or very nearly, but visually different guns under their new model name (Spitfire) and new company name.

 

In the 70's or early 80's the ATF labeled the Spitfire a machine gun due to an issue with holding down the safety while pulling the trigger leading to full auto, but they never identified the original Mark II's. Now they appear to be forgotten and people buy and sell what few of them are out there as a title 1 gun.

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Back in the day open bolt semi auto's were allowed to be made without restriction. ATF eventually closed that loophole and no longer permitted it, but the guns that were made were grandfathered and are fine to sell. Some bring a premium if you look at early open bolt MAC's vs. later there is a significant price difference. It was easy for manufacturers to take an open bolt semi and do a conversion to registered MG and sell it as such so it really worked out well for a time for everyone except government, who arbitrarily decided criminals could make unregistered MG's too easily out of some of these guns they didn't like. Today you can convert most AR's in less than two minutes, but that somehow is OK?

 

Often guns that were imported were made to be registered MG's before they could be released......this was a condition of import as I understand it. I have an LF-62 which were all imported as semi's, but required NFA registration as MG's. Mine is one a fraction of the semi's out there that I installed select fire parts into making it a legit select fire MG. Most are still semi's, but all are registered NFA. HTH

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Thanks for the response johnsonlmg and to clarify: as far as you know there's no issue with this buying and selling this gun as a title 1? Another issue I've also discovered is language in my state's set of gun laws that in addition to banning the ownership of machine guns it also includes any firearm which is adaptable to a machine gun. The language was added in 2008 for whatever context that provides. Would you say this gun would qualify there or still be allowed? Edited by HistorianInProgress
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Depends on the state and the exact language in the statute. What you posted is pretty vague and if that's the exact wording it would apply to most all semi auto guns including remington 742's? Pretty much anything semi can be fairly easily convertible to full auto. Occasionally even when things like this are in a statute it may not be enforced. WI has inconsistencies in their statutes and when called on it, since it's worded poorly, the AG has chosen to ignore it in most instances. Without the state and the exact wording it's not possible to research it and offer an opinion. You might try a local gun shop for a better answer? Should you be in an area like Cook county IL where there are no gun shops.....well then the answer is pretty obvious LOL.

Edited by johnsonlmg41
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Trying to remember the sequence but as I recall the Eagles were developed from the Spitfire and are nearly identical in many respects, {maybe it was vice versa}

After Eagle went under another company, Volunteer Arms ? revived the design for a period of time.

 

The Spitfires were produced in large enough quantities that they caught Treasury's attention, particularly after a few converted examples turned up in seizures from de Pugh's anti communist Minutemen group in the 60s.

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i would bevery careful with this item,can you get somethingin writing with serial no. and description from owner describing that is exempt, just sayn.

 

Eagles are exempt, not mentioned in the original IRS ruling.

 

For a time ATF held that so long as the trigger frame attachment bolts were "welded" over even semi Spitfires were exempt from the old IRS ruling. Doubt that still stands though

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BillyDixon: I agree which is why I'm planning on calling my ATF field office tomorrow to see if I can get a letter from them giving me the go ahead.

 

Johnson: It is pretty vague and I'm hoping they won't stick on it too much. While a gun shop wouldn't be a bad idea normally, with federal prison being the consequence if I screw up I figured I'd go straight to the source just to be safe.

 

Jim B: From my understanding the Spitfires were actually made later and by a different company who bought up the resources from Eagle Gun Company when they went out of business.

 

That's also another thing which worries me though is since this is such a rare firearm in the sense people don't know about it then the ATF might not be familiar with it either and just tell me "no." as a default. I talked to the guy who currently has it and he said he had the gun inspected by two ATF agents who didn't know what it was either, but inspected it and said it was fine.

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i would bevery careful with this item,can you get somethingin writing with serial no. and description from owner describing that is exempt, just sayn.

Eagles are exempt, not mentioned in the original IRS ruling.

 

For a time ATF held that so long as the trigger frame attachment bolts were "welded" over even semi Spitfires were exempt from the old IRS ruling. Doubt that still stands though

Do you mean you doubt the Spitfire exemption still stands or the Eagle exemption? If the latter, do you think it's likely, at least 50/50, the ATF will actually know what I'm talking about and / or see that it's not specifically designated a machine gun and give me the go ahead?

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Buy the gun and leave it at that why get the public and the world involved in a deal you want to do for YOU. if the price is right its semi auto and that is all you need to know pm me if you need any further info.Colt 21aRon

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i would bevery careful with this item,can you get somethingin writing with serial no. and description from owner describing that is exempt, just sayn.

Eagles are exempt, not mentioned in the original IRS ruling.

 

For a time ATF held that so long as the trigger frame attachment bolts were "welded" over even semi Spitfires were exempt from the old IRS ruling. Doubt that still stands though

Do you mean you doubt the Spitfire exemption still stands or the Eagle exemption? If the latter, do you think it's likely, at least 50/50, the ATF will actually know what I'm talking about and / or see that it's not specifically designated a machine gun and give me the go ahead?

 

Specifically the Spitfire exemption via welding

Eagles were never part of the original IRS letter

 

DO NOT get ATFE involved

1st of all the field office knows zip, anything they would tell you is meaningless and half the time field agents are about clueless

The real resource would be the Firearms Technical Branch however they likely will demand you send it in to them for a "determination" and that may result in them declaring Eagles NFA, again there is no practical difference between the two guns other than the name on them

 

The Bureau is notorious for reversing gears when well meaning folks press things

Leave good enough alone please.

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i would bevery careful with this item,can you get somethingin writing with serial no. and description from owner describing that is exempt, just sayn.

Eagles are exempt, not mentioned in the original IRS ruling.

 

For a time ATF held that so long as the trigger frame attachment bolts were "welded" over even semi Spitfires were exempt from the old IRS ruling. Doubt that still stands though

Do you mean you doubt the Spitfire exemption still stands or the Eagle exemption? If the latter, do you think it's likely, at least 50/50, the ATF will actually know what I'm talking about and / or see that it's not specifically designated a machine gun and give me the go ahead?

Specifically the Spitfire exemption via welding

Eagles were never part of the original IRS letter

 

DO NOT get ATFE involved

1st of all the field office knows zip, anything they would tell you is meaningless and half the time field agents are about clueless

The real resource would be the Firearms Technical Branch however they likely will demand you send it in to them for a "determination" and that may result in them declaring Eagles NFA, again there is no practical difference between the two guns other than the name on them

 

The Bureau is notorious for reversing gears when well meaning folks press things

Leave good enough alone please.

So just to be clear, your advice is to either

buy the gun and hope nobody asks questions, the answers to which could put me in federal prison, or not buy the gun?

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Pretty much how it works Historian...

 

As it stands, Federally the Eagles are not NFA regulated

Start kicking that hornet's nest it could easily change thus jacking up folks who own the guns

 

When the internets started to blossom all sorts of folks were writing ATF requesting personal letters on things that had been non issues

a couple of these guys were really well meaning and were creating web sites of determinations by Treasury

problem was in the vast bulk of the time these new rulings were negative progress

 

Further, even IF you get an affirmative determination it means nothing as it can be reversed with a pen stroke any time it's expedient to whomever.

There was a pile of this during GWs admin through Technology Branch

 

you know the old adage about if it ain't broke friend...

Edited by JimB
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Pretty much how it works Historian...

 

As it stands, Federally the Eagles are not NFA regulated

Start kicking that hornet's nest it could easily change thus jacking up folks who own the guns

 

When the internets started to blossom all sorts of folks were writing ATF requesting personal letters on things that had been non issues

a couple of these guys were really well meaning and were creating web sites of determinations by Treasury

problem was in the vast bulk of the time these new rulings were negative progress

 

Further, even IF you get an affirmative determination it means nothing as it can be reversed with a pen stroke any time it's expedient to whomever.

There was a pile of this during GWs admin through Technology Branch

 

you know the old adage about if it ain't broke friend...

True to that adage, and I see what you mean about kicking a hornets nest. On another, and possibly final note: is there any reason to be suspicious if the seller said he bought the gun from his work? I mentioned that one thing which could help me here is if he passed on the contact info of the ATF agents who inspected it there and he got kinda cagey saying that when they inspected it it was owned by his work and he's not sure how they'd feel about him buying it.

 

For what it's worth he says he has an FFL license which he'd send over to my FFL when the transfer was made, and I'm not taking possession of the gun or confirming payment (it's through a certain online payment service where I "pay" him but it doesn't go into his account until I confirm receipt of the item) until I've inspected it myself.

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YOU can sure complicate a simple deal. maybe a letter to Sessions might help you or the Mueller helpers. you are buying a simple semi rifle non nfa non sbr and doing paperwork on it receipt and done.

 

like ccw guys hey man look i am carrying a gun want to know what it is and the bullets i use? or tattooed face saying this is what i did today SEE maybe facebook and instagram and Twitter will help also.

 

K.I.S.S. get the hint yet. Guess not. you get deeper. Quit drowning grab the preserver buy and enjoy the fun..

Before they say no deal no sale we found somebody else.Colt21aRon

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Pretty much how it works Historian...

 

As it stands, Federally the Eagles are not NFA regulated

Start kicking that hornet's nest it could easily change thus jacking up folks who own the guns

 

When the internets started to blossom all sorts of folks were writing ATF requesting personal letters on things that had been non issues

a couple of these guys were really well meaning and were creating web sites of determinations by Treasury

problem was in the vast bulk of the time these new rulings were negative progress

 

Further, even IF you get an affirmative determination it means nothing as it can be reversed with a pen stroke any time it's expedient to whomever.

There was a pile of this during GWs admin through Technology Branch

 

you know the old adage about if it ain't broke friend...

True to that adage, and I see what you mean about kicking a hornets nest. On another, and possibly final note: is there any reason to be suspicious if the seller said he bought the gun from his work? I mentioned that one thing which could help me here is if he passed on the contact info of the ATF agents who inspected it there and he got kinda cagey saying that when they inspected it it was owned by his work and he's not sure how they'd feel about him buying it.

 

For what it's worth he says he has an FFL license which he'd send over to my FFL when the transfer was made, and I'm not taking possession of the gun or confirming payment (it's through a certain online payment service where I "pay" him but it doesn't go into his account until I confirm receipt of the item) until I've inspected it myself.

 

It either is or isn't

 

Good example was years ago when LEOs were able to purchase legit L1 inch pattern FALs as individual duty rifles

bunch of this went on post 922r

The guns remain legal for civilian possession

 

I wouldn't fret about an Eagle

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Pretty much how it works Historian...

 

As it stands, Federally the Eagles are not NFA regulated

Start kicking that hornet's nest it could easily change thus jacking up folks who own the guns

 

When the internets started to blossom all sorts of folks were writing ATF requesting personal letters on things that had been non issues

a couple of these guys were really well meaning and were creating web sites of determinations by Treasury

problem was in the vast bulk of the time these new rulings were negative progress

 

Further, even IF you get an affirmative determination it means nothing as it can be reversed with a pen stroke any time it's expedient to whomever.

There was a pile of this during GWs admin through Technology Branch

 

you know the old adage about if it ain't broke friend...

True to that adage, and I see what you mean about kicking a hornets nest. On another, and possibly final note: is there any reason to be suspicious if the seller said he bought the gun from his work? I mentioned that one thing which could help me here is if he passed on the contact info of the ATF agents who inspected it there and he got kinda cagey saying that when they inspected it it was owned by his work and he's not sure how they'd feel about him buying it.

 

For what it's worth he says he has an FFL license which he'd send over to my FFL when the transfer was made, and I'm not taking possession of the gun or confirming payment (it's through a certain online payment service where I "pay" him but it doesn't go into his account until I confirm receipt of the item) until I've inspected it myself.

It either is or isn't

 

Good example was years ago when LEOs were able to purchase legit L1 inch pattern FALs as individual duty rifles

bunch of this went on post 922r

The guns remain legal for civilian possession

 

I wouldn't fret about an Eagle

Can you elaborate on what you mean with these legit L1 FAL's being available to the public? At least with a form 4 or as a title 1? And you're probably right, but I just get nervous because the ATF *is* so contradictory I want to do my due diligence and not end up in federal prison.

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Pretty much how it works Historian...

 

As it stands, Federally the Eagles are not NFA regulated

Start kicking that hornet's nest it could easily change thus jacking up folks who own the guns

 

When the internets started to blossom all sorts of folks were writing ATF requesting personal letters on things that had been non issues

a couple of these guys were really well meaning and were creating web sites of determinations by Treasury

problem was in the vast bulk of the time these new rulings were negative progress

 

Further, even IF you get an affirmative determination it means nothing as it can be reversed with a pen stroke any time it's expedient to whomever.

There was a pile of this during GWs admin through Technology Branch

 

you know the old adage about if it ain't broke friend...

True to that adage, and I see what you mean about kicking a hornets nest. On another, and possibly final note: is there any reason to be suspicious if the seller said he bought the gun from his work? I mentioned that one thing which could help me here is if he passed on the contact info of the ATF agents who inspected it there and he got kinda cagey saying that when they inspected it it was owned by his work and he's not sure how they'd feel about him buying it.

 

For what it's worth he says he has an FFL license which he'd send over to my FFL when the transfer was made, and I'm not taking possession of the gun or confirming payment (it's through a certain online payment service where I "pay" him but it doesn't go into his account until I confirm receipt of the item) until I've inspected it myself.

It either is or isn't

 

Good example was years ago when LEOs were able to purchase legit L1 inch pattern FALs as individual duty rifles

bunch of this went on post 922r

The guns remain legal for civilian possession

 

I wouldn't fret about an Eagle

Can you elaborate on what you mean with these legit L1 FAL's being available to the public? At least with a form 4 or as a title 1? And you're probably right, but I just get nervous because the ATF *is* so contradictory I want to do my due diligence and not end up in federal prison.

 

Starting in the late 80s, ARMEX and Century were importing milspec L1s

the key here is that L1s were never built as select fire guns ergo they were not regulated by the NFA

further, there was and still is an individual LEO exemption that overcomes all the various import bans

Cops could import CZ75s in the 70s even though they were ComBloc products banned Stateside

Cops could as well import Walther TPH pistols that were banned under the GCA Saturday Night Special prohibitions

 

Military used to be able to do the same thing, guys serving for example in Germany were able to buy guns banned from import here and bring them back pretty easily

Clinton and GW mostly ruined that via Pentagon policy changes from my understanding

 

Anyways as the L1s were clearly not NFA regulated they pretty much poured in rather cheaply, well under $200 in the 90s

Officers were required to send in a letterheaded authorization note from their supervisor, generally the guns were shipped direct to the agency

These were straight UK or Lithgowe receivered guns

 

Understand under this existing exemption a LEO could bring in a Chinese SVD as his personal duty weapon even today and later sell it to anyone

there was quite the market in the 70s over the then new CZ75s. There were several vendors in Canada that would ship direct to LEAs. Guns were in the $200 range funny money and sold for over a grand in the civilian market. Knew a few cops that were getting their peers to order in for almost immediate civilian resale

 

Same game could be played with the countless millions of rounds of 5.45 7n6 ammo collect dust in US importers warehouses

it could be sold to LEOs and then resold to the public by them

yeah there would likely be a bit of a bureau hissy fit but so long as the Officer isn't an FFL there is nothing preventing him in law from reselling that ammo to the general public.

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That's some crazy stuff and just one more reason for me to be jealous I wasn't born earlier so I could have gotten into guns sooner haha. Where do you read this stuff? Are there books on it or just pick it up over time or what?

 

Also, just to update with my gun situation I talked to my FFL (who I learned today is a retired state trooper), told him what I'd be transferring, and he said he wants a copy of the ATF report from when the seller said he had them inspect it. Then he'll take the report to a guy he knows in the state police who will look at it and confirm or deny if it's okay to bring into the state (I'm not sure if he's going to run info or what).

 

Basically it looks like one way or the other I need to get law enforcement involved in order to buy this.

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Part of me agrees with you but I'd also still love to get this so as long as there's a chance I can then I'll keep at it.

 

I gotta admit this is something of an eye opener. I've heard how contradictory and clueless the ATF can be, but to actually talk to federal agents and state police and walk away feeling like I'm the only one who actually read the law is something else. On top of that one ATF agent told me they could inspect the gun to verify it's okay, but wouldn't give me paperwork confirming it. Meanwhile a DSP officer plainly told me he just enforces the law and doesn't know too much about the mechanics of guns other than handguns. For what it's worth the troopers were polite and pretty friendly, but I wish I could've gotten some straighter answers so I wouldn't have go go down this rabbit hole.

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