valuation on the One off Canadian Arsenals Limited MK-2 Chrome Plated

[Caina-Longbranch Limited]

Looking for valuation on the One off Canadian Arsenals Limited MK-2 Chrome Plated Sten gun that was in the Lobby of Canadian Arsenals in Toronto in the 1970s until they closed. The gun is in Clive Law’s book showing the CAL factory display Chrome Plated MK-2 Sten that was in Canadian Arsenal’s lobby at CAL., It has a consecutive serial number Inglis 9mm HP ;

 

The Canadian War Museum is not interested and can provide no idea, The Royal Armouries in the UK can provide no opinion and the Smithsonian tried but cannot make a decision If anyone can even give some idea of fair market value or refer us this would be appreciated for a “one off”

 

It’s a nice gun otherwise if you like Chrome and is in Excellent condition. I personally like the MK-2 Longbranch Sten in the War Museum with the dark WW II parkerized finish.

 

Brief Summary in case I missed something above. We also have pictures

 

This is a rare one off Longbranch Sten MK-II which was at the Canadian Arsenals Limited C.A.L. Factory Display model that they displayed in the front entrance to C.A.L. before the factory closed. Chinese contract markings on the upside of the magazine housing and Longbranch marking on the underside of the housing. Loop stock gun is marked with a 1943 date. In un-issued condition with one chrome platted magazine. The CAL Sten has a consecutive set brother or sister in that CAL had a HP Made especially one digit behind the Sten. Both guns and an Enfield were in the display case We might be able to get the CAL case also if that adds to his value . This sort of gun; unheard of in Canada and a piece of Canadiana; uniquely so and documented as per enclosed in Clive Law's Green Covered Inglis Diamond book on page 168 . That page is available upon request

 

[BRMCII]

The Sten is in Canada one would assume and is deactivated to Canadian specs?

Has little value in US beyond the value as a "parts kit".

Probably worth some modest premium to a deactivated, standard Sten to a collector in Canada.

[TSMGguy]

Right. Any mention of a value is opinion only.

Edited August 29, 2021 by TSMGguy

[Caina-Longbranch Limited]

Looking for valuation on the One off Canadian Arsenals Limited MK-2 Chrome Plated Sten gun that was in the Lobby of Canadian Arsenals in Toronto in the 1970s until they closed. The gun is in Clive Law’s book showing the CAL factory display Chrome Plated MK-2 Sten that was in Canadian Arsenal’s lobby at CAL., It has a consecutive serial number Inglis 9mm HP ;

 

The Canadian War Museum is not interested and can provide no idea, The Royal Armouries in the UK can provide no opinion and the Smithsonian tried but cannot make a decision If anyone can even give some idea of fair market value or refer us this would be appreciated for a “one off”

 

It’s a nice gun otherwise if you like Chrome and is in Excellent condition. I personally like the MK-2 Longbranch Sten in the War Museum with the dark WW II parkerized finish.

 

Brief Summary in case I missed something above. We also have pictures

 

This is a rare one off Longbranch Sten MK-II which was at the Canadian Arsenals Limited C.A.L. Factory Display model that they displayed in the front entrance to C.A.L. before the factory closed. Chinese contract markings on the upside of the magazine housing and Longbranch marking on the underside of the housing. Loop stock gun is marked with a 1943 date. In un-issued condition with one chrome platted magazine. The CAL Sten has a consecutive set brother or sister in that CAL had a HP Made especially one digit behind the Sten. Both guns and an Enfield were in the display case We might be able to get the CAL case also if that adds to his value . This sort of gun; unheard of in Canada and a piece of Canadiana; uniquely so and documented as per enclosed in Clive Law's Green Covered Inglis Diamond book on page 168 . That page is available upon request

The gun is live as it was the day it left Canadian Arsenals Limited. Its known as a 12.2 grandfathered prohib in Canada in which grandfathered people can own or museums . Sort of like the American Pre 86 ban guns, except for people!

[BRMCII]

As a live MG under your codes, I assume then, that it becomes even more difficult to sell given the much smaller community of eligible potential buyers. Those collectors in Canada who are licensed to possess live MGs would be your market.
As a Chinese contract Gun, was there something special about it to have been chromed and displayed by C.A.L.?

[johnsonlmg41]

moderated

Edited January 18, 2022 by johnsonlmg41

[Caina-Longbranch Limited]

1% of Canadians are PAL license holders eligible to acquire a gun like that. It's a non working chromed display gun which might be worth around $300 in the US (exception for IMA where it's priced at $6000 and sells in an hour with a fake backstory). While it has history in CA maybe $1200 to the guy that worked at the factory and holds a license? Auctions as pointed out are the best route if that's even possible in Can'tada.

Museums have no interest in values or acquiring additional firearms, except possibly Cody, but most of that was given to them or on loan and if it doesn't say Winchester they have no interest and it's not importable. The Smithsonian would have more interest in a Michael Jackson shoelace than a new firearm.

The pistol would be worth far more than the sten IMO, but it should go as a set which narrows the buyer pool and price per piece.

Post some pictures anyway, we all like to see interesting stuff!

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the evaluation. Here is a quote in Thompson by a place called the thrill list. I like them but some people think they are a boat anchor.

 

If you thought the $200 price tag for one of these bad boys in the 1920s was bad, you should hear what real ones go for these days. For a real, fully-automatic M1 Thompson, you can expect to pay anywhere from $15,000 to $30,000, depending on condition, year, and documentation. And that’s before all the insane taxes and paperwork to be paid and filed with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (Thanks NFA Act!).

 

Now imagine you have the Thompson (if there was one from the display room of auto ordnance; the gun they wanted to mark Thompson production by. If you are not an American you might say so what, like a commonwealth Sten gun to Americans. Longbranch, Sten guns in the British Commonwealth were know as one of the best produced Sten guns in Sten gun production, and the Chinese Nationalist Contact was the last and most significant contribution to fighting communist China, and this is the factory's show piece to the world. To a Canadian and British Commonwealth Museum despite the chrome bit not my thing but a status of the times in the 1950s is the pinnacle and final salute to Sten production in both Canada and the Commonwealth. So what's it worth?. The British/Canadian commonwealth equivalent to the factory display Thompson in the Auto Ordnance plant. One would not want to deactivate that either? It would be like going into an art museum an squirting ketchup over the painting. Fries anyone? )

 

BTW how do you post the PDF to show the one off providence in Clive Law's book (PDF form) and how do you post pictures

Edited August 31, 2021 by Caina-Longbranch Limited

[BillyDixon]

mr caina,, since your new on this board could you tell us a little background how you got into this collection, are you a canada collector or deailer, are you trying to sell or broker this sten ? just wondering

[BRMCII]

Your Thompson analogy is frivolous and irrelevant. It has no bearing on the issue of trying to sell a live MG in a country whose ultra restrictive policies prohibit even a remotely reasonable commerce in live MGs. Your understanding of the US MG industry is quite faulty as well.
Despite the restrictions and controls on possession of live MGs in the US there is a healthy and mature collector industry. This is demonstrable fact. The market determines the values of MGs for the simple reason that there is an excellent market that functions within the federal controls.
Your Sten has a very limited value because of the extremely restrictive laws and minuscule market in Canada. Regardless of how much you feel the Sten is worth, despite it's worthy provenance, there is no market to determine it's actual value to those who might wish to buy it.
You can continue to flog this dead horse for as long as you want, but the facts of the value situation with the Sten are not in your favor.

That you are trying to squeeze some kind of acceptable valuation for your inflated notions of the worth of this gun from the community in the US shows how disconnected you are from the reality of your situation with the gun in CA.

There's nothing that anyone in the US can do for you except point out that you will have to deal with the reality of Canadian laws.

Too bad, but that seems to me to be the truth. FWIW

[BillyDixon]

i cant agree more withBRMCC11 , something is only woryh what a buyer will pay,,,i see so many guys who ask on several different sites : whats it worth : i think they are creating an upward sprial of artifical pricing, many guys come into shop and want offer on something and if you say a number they counter with SOME THING LIKE, OH MY FRIEND SAY ITS WORTH THIS,,,SO SELL IT TO YOUR FRIEND,, JUST SAYN

[laurencen]

the market here in Canada for a functioning Sten is likely one in 250,000 given only grandfathered licensed can own or purchase and if they can purchase it can never be displayed or fired, only Sten's we see these days are deactivated ones, current rules require no moving parts even the mag is welded in, its too bad it was not deactivated many years ago when the rules were slack but that's progress.

 

Deactivated one under the old rules are selling in the 400us and solid would be less, you would need to find someone who also wants the background and Chrome finish to get a premium price.

[Caina-Longbranch Limited]

1% of Canadians are PAL license holders eligible to acquire a gun like that. It's a non working chromed display gun which might be worth around $300 in the US (exception for IMA where it's priced at $6000 and sells in an hour with a fake backstory). While it has history in CA maybe $1200 to the guy that worked at the factory and holds a license? Auctions as pointed out are the best route if that's even possible in Can'tada.

Museums have no interest in values or acquiring additional firearms, except possibly Cody, but most of that was given to them or on loan and if it doesn't say Winchester they have no interest and it's not importable. The Smithsonian would have more interest in a Michael Jackson shoelace than a new firearm.

The pistol would be worth far more than the sten IMO, but it should go as a set which narrows the buyer pool and price per piece.

Post some pictures anyway, we all like to see interesting stuff!

The idea here was to get some sort of sense of fair value

 

Frankly, we are not sure what we are going to do with the gun other then keep it? It’s a museum’s gun specifically for its well documented providence, and the fact that I have personally known the original owner since I was 15. It is sacrilege to deactivate a one-off factory display gun with documents, and FYI people stopped being grandfathered in Canada for civilian ownership of these 12.2 class machines guns in 1978 and people who still hold these guns are no longer buyers

Royal Armouries is interested; however, they are not permitted to offer a fair market value estimate and offers to trade are no longer possible for fear they might cut a bad deal and someone in their bureaucratic system will come back to draw and quarter the person who was so brazen to make an actual decision. In business we have to make decisions and I am wrong at least once a week, probably twice on Sundays. Today is not Sunday! Good people at Royal Armouries however, their hands are tied by new current policy.

 

We might sell it, auction it , trade it or it might be of value to someone who wants to donate it to Royal Armouries for a tax receipt? As a gun person I actually spent more time on this than I should have and that happens occasionally

 

The Smithsonian referred us to the NRA museum this week and we will see what they say or we might end up keeping it.?

As far as value.

 

Here is a Rock Island auction British Sten gun, no providence just a technically nice gun for a UK production. There is estimated price and price realized at auction. People can decide for themselves

 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/57/1773/british-fazakerley-and-sten-mkii-machine-gun-9-mm-luger

 

Here is also another Rock Island auction for the M-3 Grease gun. The American equivalent to the Sten; however, unlike our Canadian Arsenals Limited Factory chrome plated factory display gun this not General Motors/Guide Lamp Division factory display gun; documented. Just a technically nice gun ; one of countless many poured out. There is the estimated price and then an actual price realized at auction. I had never contacted these people before today and people are free to draw their own conclusions

 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/70/3445/guide-lamp--m3

DOC007 (1).PDF

Edited September 2, 2021 by Caina-Longbranch Limited

[ron_brock]

At the end of the day, I am not sure you will ascertain an idea of a fair market value outside of an auction. your inquiry is regarding a unique, special production gun with provenance. Its located in Canada and there is a limited pool of people or entities that could purchase if they so desired. Comparisons to transferable machine guns in the US is pointless, not relevant. Why did that Sten bring what it did? Because its legally registered here so its not a $200 parts kit or a a new built dealer sample. Value is determined by the market, not the scarcity. Yes there can be a correlation, but something that is scarce or rare may have little value depending on who can buy it. Likely a museum is a good option. Not sure if the ones here in the states can import that Sten or not, but its a good lead to track down.

 

Its very unique and I appreciate you finding the board and sharing. Not to discourage the attempt to find a valuation, but its going to be tough.

 

Canadian board friends, what is a legal full auto Sten sell for in Canada amongst those that can own them? Thats a better starting point on valuation IMHO

 

Ron

[johnsonlmg41]

.

Edited January 18, 2022 by johnsonlmg41

[laurencen]

the part of a Sten that is registered would have been the magazine housing, all other parts are found for sale from time to time, Marstar in Ontario sells all parts less the housing, the problem is this one is registered as a complete FA firearm, the market for a Sten is small, there is no way it can be taken to a range and shot, there are many deactivated ones on the market and under current rules it has to be welded solid with no moving parts, this work has to be done by a registered gunsmith to RCMP standards

 

if it was me I would remove all parts and sell them, turn the housing into the RCMP and have it removed from the registry, there may be a way to render the housing unusable and be allowed to retain it but you have to check that avenue out.

 

A few years ago a fellow had a M1A1 Thompson for sale that was FA, part of a family estate, he tried selling for $1000.00 with no takers, he was offered $2000.00 if he got it deactivated and off the registry but the gunsmith was expensive finally he checked with the RCMP who said only the upper was registered, took it apart and off the upper went, it was in really nice condition, took some time but he got $1600.00 for all the parts.

 

As far as I know you can not export it to the US

[WinSten]

First off, let me say this is the first chromed Sten Ive ever seen

It definitely is a historically important Sten. But as others have said the Canadian market for these guns is extremely limited. The American transferable Sten prices are 90% paying for the tax stamp and or C&R status. My guess for a value if it was a C&R transferable MG in the U.S would be about double the price of a C&R transferable or $20,000.

 

But since it is in Canada to me that makes the gun lose about 90% of its value so its probably worth around $2000 give or take. Honestly the best possible place for this Sten to end up would be at the Royal armories collection.

Its full of amazing guns that are at the same time priceless historical items and just about worthless on commercial market due to the legal situation in the U.K.

Thanks for sharing the pictures!

[Caina-Longbranch Limited]

First off, let me say this is the first chromed Sten Ive ever seen

It definitely is a historically important Sten. But as others have said the Canadian market for these guns is extremely limited. The American transferable Sten prices are 90% paying for the tax stamp and or C&R status. My guess for a value if it was a C&R transferable MG in the U.S would be about double the price of a C&R transferable or $20,000.

 

But since it is in Canada to me that makes the gun lose about 90% of its value so its probably worth around $2000 give or take. Honestly the best possible place for this Sten to end up would be at the Royal armories collection.

Its full of amazing guns that are at the same time priceless historical items and just about worthless on commercial market due to the legal situation in the U.K.

Thanks for sharing the pictures!

Thank you and you are welcome. Here is a nice historical note from Capt Colin Stevens who was generous with his time. I am not a Chrome platted person however at the time this is how they gave important note to presentation guns in the 1950s

 

XXX

 

Thank you for contacting me.

 

An interesting item.

 

Your Sten Gun Mk. II was made by Small Arms Limited in 1943 as one of 72,882 made for National China as part of Canada's Mutual Aide Program, similar to the U.S. "Lend Lease" except that our Canadian products were gifts, rather than loans. Your is likely unique with the CAL serial number and the chrome finish. Flat black was the standard finish.

 

The serial number with "CAL" as the lead digits obviously received its serial number in 1946 or later once Canadian Arsenals Limited had taken over from the wartime Small Arms Limited. CAL did not make any Stens apparently. The key reference book is a rare one called The Sten Machine Carbine by Peter Laidler, Collector Grade Publications, 2000. These books are in very high demand and a search on AbeBooks.com showed one listed for U.S. $1,500 and another one for U.S. $2,061.97. I have one and I just read through the chapter on the Canadian production.

 

Canada was still using some Sten Mk. II as late as the summer of 1969 as I did my basic training with one aboard H.M.C.S. Gatineau. When declared surplus, some were purchased live by collectors and shooters as it was quite legal to do so. Many others were deactivated and sold to the General Public. The one in my collection is also a 1943 SAL Long Branch one, deactivated. In 1943, serial numbers were around the 6Lxxxx range. Production peaked in June 1943 with 8,591 guns being produced in one month. Yours was obviously set aside, chromed and not numbered until after the war. If the chrome is over the serial number then of course it was chromed later by CAL.

 

XXXX

 

It has an interesting history and will probably the most appreciated in a place like the Royal Armories that also allow their collection to be studied. This is less about value and more to make sure it goes to a good home. Royal Armories cannot trade any more and it might go to them as a tax receipt for someone who needs a deduction. We need to preserve history like this not cut it up and vandalize it

[skoda]

I suggest trying to find a decent museum in Canada that can and wants to take it. At least then others can enjoy it for generations.

 

Another possibility is Movie Armaments Group in Toronto. They have a large collection of machine guns that they rent out for making films. I don't know if they purchase guns from individuals but they might and may well be interested in such an odd gun. The down side of this is they might chop and weld on it to turn it into a space gun or some other abomination.

Edited September 16, 2021 by skoda

[Caina-Longbranch Limited]

I suggest trying to find a decent museum in Canada that can and wants to take it. At least then others can enjoy it for generations.

 

Another possibility is Movie Armaments Group in Toronto. They have a large collection of machine guns that they rent out for making films. I don't know if they purchase guns from individuals but they might and may well be interested in such an odd gun. The down side of this is they might chop and weld on it to turn it into a space gun or some other abomination.

Thank you for your comments; however, it seems that Canadians don’t place much value on their own history from the times that the Bluenose 1 that was left to rot in the Caribbean et al

 

Royal Armories' in the UK recognizes the unique natures of this gun with documented providence but has no budget, so we offered them a trade but new policy doesn’t allow them to trade as someone some time ago made a bad trade in someone’s opinion. Because their collection is open to people for study we even offered to trade them from ordnance to aviation including engines piston or turbofan sich as the Allison TF-41/RR Spey under license for an A-7 Corsair II restoration however, their hands are tied by public policy and we respect that.

 

They can also issue a tax receipt for a UK citizen only and at an estimated fair value of (Estimate withdrawn in leu of a trade) in conservatively speaking a tax receipt could be quite attractive for someone in the UK who needs it? The realized value of a generic M-3 Grease gun with no providence makes a CAL factory display Sten a bit of a joke. People that don’t agree can just mouse click away to something else that they do agree with. Two M-3 auctions below

 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/70/3445/guide-lamp--m3

or

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_n__fine_condition_guide_lamp_m3__grease_gun__mach-lot451631.aspx

 

For people who put no value in one offs like this , as someone said Michael Jackson’s shoe laces have more collector value. No accounting for tastes but to each his/her own.

 

This one off factory display Sten that was produced with Chinese markings for Nationalist China is also a great historical note on Canada’s relationship with Taiwan that extends back to the 1940s

 

Below is a nice historical precis on the Longbranch Chinese contract Sten by

by Capt Colin Steves of the Seaforth Highlanders

XXX

 

Thank you for contacting me.

 

An interesting item.

 

Your Sten Gun Mk. II was made by Small Arms Limited in 1943 as one of 72,882 made for National China as part of Canada's Mutual Aide Program, similar to the U.S. "Lend Lease" except that our Canadian products were gifts, rather than loans. Your is likely unique with the CAL serial number and the chrome finish. Flat black was the standard finish.

 

The serial number with "CAL" as the lead digits obviously received its serial number in 1946 or later once Canadian Arsenals Limited had taken over from the wartime Small Arms Limited. CAL did not make any Stens apparently. The key reference book is a rare one called The Sten Machine Carbine by Peter Laidler, Collector Grade Publications, 2000. These books are in very high demand and a search on AbeBooks.com showed one listed for U.S. $1,500 and another one for U.S. $2,061.97. I have one and I just read through the chapter on the Canadian production.

 

Canada was still using some Sten Mk. II as late as the summer of 1969 as I did my basic training with one aboard H.M.C.S. Gatineau. When declared surplus, some were purchased live by collectors and shooters as it was quite legal to do so. Many others were deactivated and sold to the General Public. The one in my collection is also a 1943 SAL Long Branch one, deactivated. In 1943, serial numbers were around the 6Lxxxx range. Production peaked in June 1943 with 8,591 guns being produced in one month. Yours was obviously set aside, chromed and not numbered until after the war. If the chrome is over the serial number then of course it was chromed later by CAL.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Caina-Longbranch Limited

[Caina-Longbranch Limited]

We have decided withdraw any estimates on this one unique one off guns along with its providence (enclosed). As one collector said we have a Unicorn. Its either up there as a unique one off from the 1950s factory presentation mindset, not unlike Michael Jackson's shoe laces or its worth nothing as a Sten Gun or its worth nothing. Sort of like someone mindset that firearms should only be in the hands of the police and the military ( I think not )

 

We might consider a trade for an aircraft engine, armored vehicle or artillery; however, beauty and value is in the eye of the beholder. Such is life.

 

We are working on the sale or trade of an LTV-1 Alligator (description below) . To some its a prize, and to others its old, needs to be refurbished and should have been scrapped and made into a bumper years ago

 

https://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/US/LVT-1_Alligator.php

 

 

Sometimes we have to agree that we have different tastes or as Gen Mattis said about the de-visive nature of politics "We have to get used to the idea that the person on the other side that we might disagree with might actually have a point" Good point I thought

[michaelkih]

This is a super neat gun. With that said, comparisons of it with transferable machine guns in the USA is like comparing prices of an apple and a bag of air. There isn't a comparison, and it just doesn't matter anyways. I would assume with the very limited Canada buyers, it'd be less than $1,000 in over there, but I also don't fully know the laws there. Cool gun either way. A factory display gun like that would probably be worth tens of thousands if transferable here in the US. Just my refinished amnesty registered plain and regular Sten is over $10,000 here. Again though, that just doesn't matter at all.