The M1 Carbine and the Winchester M1905, 32 Sl rifle

[jim c 351]

Some of the new carbine collectors may not be aware of the impact a Winchester rifle made in 1905 had on the M1 carbine. In the late 1930's the US Army decided they needed a light rifle and turned to Winchester to provide cartridges. Apparently it was decided that a 110 gr bullet at 2000 FPS would fill the requirements. At the time Winchester was making a series of self loading (SL) cartridges. they were the 401 SL, the 351 SL, the 35 SL, and the 32 SL. Winchester decided that the least powerful, the 32 SL, would meet the Army requirements. Winchester simply removed the rim, necked it down to 30 cal, and called it the 30 self loading. Winchester was not interested in submitting a rifle in the trials. They had enough work making the US Rifle. But the Army was not satisfied with the rifles submitted and requested Winchester to submit a light rifle. In a record short time, a matter of weeks, Winchester entered the eventual winner, which became the US Carbine caliber 30 M1. How did they accomplish this miracle. Well the had the cartridge, they used the basic trigger group parts-the hammer, trigger, sear, and safety, the Carbine Williams short stroke piston, and the M1 rifle cam activated turn bolt. Plus some gifted engineers and machinists working round the clock and the rest is history. Jim C

Edited August 2, 2017 by jim c 351

[jim c 351]

These Winchester Model 1905 trigger group parts belong with the above post.

Jim C

[OCM]

Interesting stuff, Jim, thanks for showing this.

Here's a question you might have a theory on : I had a guy I knew, that was able to take the Lebman F/A apart at Tucson. He said the conversion to F/A was very simple. I'm certainly not going to do that, but any thoughts how this could of been simply done to a 07 351, or any of the WSL rifles. Sear maybe ?

 

Thanks

 

OCM

[jim c 351]

Sandy,

As I posted above, the trigger group parts in the Winchester are almost identical to the carbine trigger group parts.

During WW2 , soldiers in the field did various things to make the carbine full auto. One of the simplest ways was to polish the trigger/sear to obtain a very light trigger pull. Then the violent action of the bolt/slide group slamming foreword would jar the hammer loose from the sear and fire FA.

The same thing could be done with the Winchester, but if such a thing was done, it could only be identified by firing. Simply viewing the parts would not be proof positive.

Also firing 800 RPM with a 15 rd would produce more noise than casualties.

Jim C

[OCM]

Hey thanks- The Tucson 07 is non select fire so this makes sense. Sounds like a very dangerous operation for the user. Safety off, you better not sneeze. As you know the spring is a bearcat too. Front grip and muzzle break would be a necessity.

Can see why the GIs would do this in War.

Lebman may of done something else or made it obvious to this guy, but he seemed to be able to ID it as F/A. I've searched back into the people there in Tucson, back into the 50s, nobody knows if it's F/A. Maybe the sear is rudely filed down, just don't know, Jim

 

Thanks, good answer for me. As always

[jim c 351]

Sandy,

I should have added that such a conversion could also result in a runaway gun.

Jim C

[Kilroy]

The whole carbine story I find interesting. After the Winchester design won it was handed to Inland who spent weeks refining and making exact drawings (blue prints) of the individual parts so it could immediately go into mass production. If I recall correctly, Inland completed the design then built their ten tool room models off the drawings. Then further refined the drawings and went into full scale production.

[OCM]

Jim-

Was assuming that's what would happen, sear would fully release on the hammer and off she'd go. I guess if Lebman or WWII Soldiers polished the sear to trigger down to just a hair, change the sear spring out, timing lever, you could probably pull off bursts, but would never know. Pretty dangerous weapon on both ends. Without the added front grip be completely out of control.

Lot of time and effort went in to modifying the Lebman Winchester exterior, but the guard assembly seems to be pretty straight forward, be same with the carbine I guess.

Is there a comparison drawing of the M1 and the F/A production ( M2 ? ) of the same out there. Wouldn't that explain it ?

Or something like that-

Edited August 3, 2017 by OCM

[JimB]

The classic theater conversion done in Europe during WWII was dirt simple, all that was done was to grind the tail off the sear.

That done the hammer followed the bolt forward and due to the strength of its spring was somewhat reliable.

 

Story was this conversion started with the French resistance and spread a bit with GIs when they encountered it post D-Day invasion

Problem was it resulted in a crazy ROF, over 900 RPM.

anyways due to field requests the M2 conversion kit was developed late in the European war which due to the mechanics resulted in a bit slower ROF, around 750 RPM

 

This was the conversion the SLA had done to their M1 carbines such as the one Patty Hearst packed, pretty sure those were a mixture of Plainfields and Universal models

I understand the Minutemen did it as well in liu of real M2s

[Kilroy]

By having the hammer follow the bolt home, isn't that dangerous for a possible out of battery fire? Although I know the carbine has milling cuts in the receiver and bolt to do everything possible to ensure the bolt is locked in battery before the firing pin can be struck. Edited August 5, 2017 by Kilroy

[JimB]

By having the hammer follow the bolt home, isn't that dangerous for a possible out of battery fire? Although I know the carbine has milling cuts in the receiver and bolt to do everything possible to ensure the bolt is locked in battery before the firing pin can be struck.

Yes it can lead to an OOB discharge however neither the French partisans nor GIs were likely aware of that issue

[jim c 351]

Perhaps we can get back to the original purpose of my post, the connection between the M1 carbine and the Winchester 32 SL.

Not how to foolishly and illegally convert a gun to full auto.

Jim C

[JimB]

Perhaps we can get back to the original purpose of my post, the connection between the M1 carbine and the Winchester 32 SL.

Not how to foolishly and illegally convert a gun to full auto.

Jim C

no argument on the foolish angle however the legality depends on whether an SOT did it or Joe the Schmuck, just like the shoestring insanity. I kind of detest when folks assume the worst in these discussions

 

My post was just pointing out that due to the similarity between the 05 and Carbine Trigger Groups there was an easy way the gangland types in the 30s may have done it.

 

I just replied with a bit more detailed answer to the same question by OCM that you had already replied to but point taken, I bow out.