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ingram military m6

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#1 theend33

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:38 PM

Hey everyone, My great uncle (US Navy and police officer) left behind a mutt of an Ingram M6. It appears to be a military style since it has the ring for the strap on the stock, the smooth barrel as opposed to the finned barrel, but it has a hybrid forearm grip, it looks like a combination of both military and police models. On the base of the barrel it reads: Ingram Patents Pending, Police Ordinance Company, Los Angeles California, M6 Millitary, 1128. I will add some pictures so you can see what I mean by its similarities to both designs. Just trying to gather info. From the looks of it either the base of the barrel was sealed up on purpose or thats a few lead rounds that mushroomed together and got jammed before the rifiling starts.

---- The story my Great Aunt tells goes: My great uncle bought it off a guy who ended up getting arrested for selling to (Cubans?) when my uncle took the gun to get fixed (not sure what he was fixing or if this is why the forearm/grip is different) he was driving on the parkway with it on his back seat, The toll collector saw it and radioed ahead, when he got off the parkway he was then arrested since he forgot all of his papers and id's at home. All his buddies at the station laughed at him that following Monday for getting temporarily arrested untill he proved he was a cop.--- He may have been going to get the squib load jammed in the barrel fixed but never bothered after this ordeal and it's been in his attic since 1981? well, as far as I know I wasn't around till '85 --

Pardon any error in terminology as I only recently aquired my FFL and I am brand new to shooting and collecting. Thanks guys

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#2 timkel

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:39 AM

Do you have the tax stamp for the weapon? The barrel looks plugged for deactivation?
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#3 theend33

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:29 AM

No tax stamp, his papers are somewhere, but he was a collector and packrat. It is currently back over my great aunts house since it isn't registered to me and thats the "most leagal" place for it to be at the moment. My great uncle might have even been taking it for deactivation, or who knows maybe re-activation before he was stopped short? but no clue since he's no longer here to ask and she only knows so much. I only assumed it was active since he did leave his .38 special service revolver and mk2 knife packed away next to it that I currently have also. I don't currently have a class 3 liscence so I can't possess it, but my friend is a local officer who is going to help me along the proper motions/paperwork route to get everything legalized. Can it be unplugged to be re-activated? Any advice is welcome.
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#4 james m

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:42 AM

The first step is to make sure it's a registered NFA firearm. If it is then you need to have your Aunt transfer it to you. I believe this will be done at no charge since you're a family member. After that I'd recommend you have it examined by a qualified full auto gunsmith to determine what would be required for re-activation.
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#5 timkel

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

Finding the ATF registration paperwork is important. If it was properly registered you can now convert it back into a live weapon.
If your uncle never registered it. It would now be contraband. As the registry was closed in 1986.
You have a fine weapon with lots of history.
The handguard has been modified to add the vertical grip. That looks like some kind of compensator added to the barrel.

Edited by timkel, 04 October 2012 - 10:51 AM.

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#6 theend33

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:35 PM

Thank you everyone for your help. If I can't find the paperwork or it was discarded after his death, is there any way to obtain a copy that may have been on record, he was a local police officer after all so all of the records would have been with my police staion i believe? Transferring the .38 from my aunt was no problem without paperwork since she was the one who technically inherited the gun even tho she never had a liscence, and it was consider gifting/family transfer, but I understand there is a big difference between these 2 guns lol. Is there a registry to search by social security number or firearm model/serial number? Just trying to cover all the bases so if it has a chance at being saved and reactivated it dosen't have to end up in the attic again or hanging on a wall as a decoration till my wife wants it taken down (I can see the disapproving looks already haha).
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#7 emmagee1917

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:26 PM

I am assuming that your aunt was/is the executor of the estate or the sole inheritor . If so , the MG is now hers , and she can contact the BATFE with your uncle's information and the MG's model and serial numbers. If it is papered , then it can be transfered . If not , the reciever is contraband and must be turned over or donated . Depending on the details , it may transfer directly to you tax free , or it may have to be transfered to her tax free then to you on a $200 stamp .
Chris
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#8 theend33

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:12 PM

I am assuming that your aunt was/is the executor of the estate or the sole inheritor . If so , the MG is now hers , and she can contact the BATFE with your uncle's information and the MG's model and serial numbers. If it is papered , then it can be transfered . If not , the reciever is contraband and must be turned over or donated . Depending on the details , it may transfer directly to you tax free , or it may have to be transfered to her tax free then to you on a $200 stamp .
Chris



Awsome info Thank's so much, Now even since its been disabled we'd have to turn it over immediately if there wasn't paperwork originally?
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#9 timkel

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:51 PM


I am assuming that your aunt was/is the executor of the estate or the sole inheritor . If so , the MG is now hers , and she can contact the BATFE with your uncle's information and the MG's model and serial numbers. If it is papered , then it can be transfered . If not , the reciever is contraband and must be turned over or donated . Depending on the details , it may transfer directly to you tax free , or it may have to be transfered to her tax free then to you on a $200 stamp .
Chris



Awsome info Thank's so much, Now even since its been disabled we'd have to turn it over immediately if there wasn't paperwork originally?


Yes, the ATF still considers it a deactivated MG or " DEWAT". A dewat is required to be in the registry. That receiver is considered a live MG by ATF even though the barrel is plugged. Many dewat MG were sold via mail order in the early 60's. There was an amnesty in 1968 which required registration of dewats, Mg's ect..
There is a good chance the Ingram m6 was registered at that time.
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#10 theend33

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:35 PM

Well with all the info I have now it looks like I'll be calling BATFE up and crossing my fingers that it's got all its proper paperwork out there. I'd hate to have to turn anything over, but I'd hate even more to be accidentally found in posession of something hanging on my wall that would get me a few years :P. I figure, worst case scenario I part the sucker out and give BATFE the receiver if it really comes down to it. At least I'll have his service revolver and If I have to part it out I'm sure it'll get me a nice 30-06 to go hunting with my brother-in-law. I'm sure my uncle would rather see it go to use that way then get me in trouble. I'll update everyone very soon, keep your fingers crossed for me.
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#11 emmagee1917

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:56 PM

It is considered tax information , and therefor private . For years I could call to see if a MG was just listed and they would help me , but others here have said they've tightened up. Your aunt may have to be the one to call if she's the executor / inheritor . She could then turn the phone over to you if it gets too complicated for her to understand.
Chris
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#12 theend33

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:55 AM

Allright, well, ATF helped me out with my info, the gun was registered in 1968 to my uncle and they're going to have a specialist call me back and let me know the correct route to go but the woman I talked to did inform me that it will have to go through my great aunt first. Now comes even more legal questions that I'm sure the specialist will have the answers to, or my police station will. I'm in NJ and I'm not sure if I can even have the gun in this communist state any more lol (from what I understand we're one of the tightest states on gun laws). I'm bad with terminology so I was mistaken when I said I had my "FFL" but I've only got my firearms i.d. card, for basic ownership, but that's rifles and handguns.. I need a "class 3 FFL" for something like this? Like I said I'm brand new into this, so any advice is welcome while I'm waiting to talk to the other ATF agent or to get a chance to stop at the police station in person. - Thanks again for all your help everyone
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#13 timkel

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:19 PM

Good news! it is registered. Bad news! you are in New Jersey.
Machine guns are not allowed in NJ.
Dewats legal in NJ? I do not know.
You may need a lawyer on this one.
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#14 emmagee1917

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:52 PM

Yes , the state laws must also be taken into account. Right now , hanging on the wall behind me , is a live M9A1 bazooka , thanks to the kind folks you all put in power in NJ. Fellow there died , the heirs of his estate wanted it , but they were all in-state and DDs are a no-no there now ( the grandfather was , well , grandfathered ) . They sold it to Sarco ( then in NJ ) . They advertised it and I jumped on it . Due to the 30 day lead time for thier ads , they had found out in the interm that THEY could not have it either , even with thier license. When I talked to them they said they had sold it 5 minutes before to Long Mountain Outfitters . Got the condition info ( excellent BTW ) and the name of who bought it. Called them and bought it on the spot ( quickest NFA turn over he ever had ) . He wanted to see it before quoting me a price , but I said he knew what he had paid so he could figure a fair mark-up . Funny thing was , his price just happened to be the figure of the most I'd pay.
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#15 theend33

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:51 PM

Yes , the state laws must also be taken into account. Right now , hanging on the wall behind me , is a live M9A1 bazooka , thanks to the kind folks you all put in power in NJ. Fellow there died , the heirs of his estate wanted it , but they were all in-state and DDs are a no-no there now ( the grandfather was , well , grandfathered ) . They sold it to Sarco ( then in NJ ) . They advertised it and I jumped on it . Due to the 30 day lead time for thier ads , they had found out in the interm that THEY could not have it either , even with thier license. When I talked to them they said they had sold it 5 minutes before to Long Mountain Outfitters . Got the condition info ( excellent BTW ) and the name of who bought it. Called them and bought it on the spot ( quickest NFA turn over he ever had ) . He wanted to see it before quoting me a price , but I said he knew what he had paid so he could figure a fair mark-up . Funny thing was , his price just happened to be the figure of the most I'd pay. Chris


Nice, I wouldn't mind keeping the gun, but If NJ simply won't permit it you say they were allowed to sell it to a dealer rather than simply turning it over to the cops ---I was thinking I would have to part it out and turn in the receiver just to get anything out of it? I'm sure if I did that I'd get half the guns value, but still nice to have an option. Any clue what mine may be worth based off the pictures (and the fact that I may not be able to re-activate it if I can't register it legally first)... I'm assuming that it would be worth alot more if I would be able to spend a few bucks to get it re-activated before selling it. I could always use some of the cash to pick up a rifle and I've got a little one on the way so extra cash is always helpful :P.
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#16 theend33

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:17 AM

--Going to see my co-workers friend after work, I'll update on any details, he's one of the few dealers left in the area so he's gonna try to give me a price and details on taking the plug out to re-activate it.
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#17 emmagee1917

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:02 PM

Yes , In MGs rather than DDs you can . Or rather could. My info is about 4 years old , so things might have changed there. The money is in the paperwork . Your value would be the same as a functioning gun in your condition less the cost of reactivation and maybe a bit for time and trouble.
Chris
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#18 theend33

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:52 PM

Good to know thanks, and so far on value, legality and process to switch it over to my name, its a waiting game. Everyone's kinda unsure about details that I've talked to in person,- price wise they found past ones sold for $4k - $7k but they don't know where to put mine in that value.... so friends are referring me to friends of friends, and one dealer to his detective friend. NJ sucks :P . To top it off my great aunt didn't want to be hasseled with any paperwork, phone calls or issues so if I can't take care of most of it besides a signature or 2 it may just stay up in an attic untill I inherit it one day (hopefully a day far from now knock on wood). But like I said, still a waiting game. ATF specialist hasn't called me back yet, and waiting on my co-workers dealer-friend's friend the detective to see the dealer for my pics and info. --- the dealer even mentioned since its like a 30 round clip he may not even be able to sell the clip or the gun weather it be in state or out of state since the gun is originating from within NJ :P --- we'll see, I have a feeling it'll be a while till I find out. But I'll update then- Thanks all
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#19 emmagee1917

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:20 PM

It will still have to be transfered into a living person's name . Right now it is in limbo , between owners , so to speak . ATF will give you time to straighten it out , but you have to be working in good faith .
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#20 Grasshopper

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 10:47 PM

Hi,

I'm no expert, but from what I've read, the gun may be a "Regestered DEWAT"

10.1.5 DEWATS. Deactivated War Trophy (DEWAT) firearms are still firearms under the NFA, but
have been rendered unserviceable (i.e., incapable of discharging a shot by means of an explosive and
incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition)............................Because the
DEWAT is unserviceable, it is transferred tax-exempt as a curio or ornament on an ATF Form 5......................................

The nice thing, if I recall correctly, is that some states allow you to own one so long as it remains in the DEWAT status. Again, if my memory serves me correctly, it can be transferred to another individual in another state as a DEWAT without paying the transfer tax. The tax is paid when someone decides to reactivate the gun. Personally I'd leave it as a DEWAT and get it to the new owner prior to reactivation. The paperwork is much easier.

Hope this helps,

Good Luck,

Grasshopper
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