M1 Thompson (Rewat) on Sturm

[shadowman]

Here's an M1 Thompson for sale, just posted this morning--

 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/index.php?/topic/979-wts-transferable-wwii-auto-ordnance-bridgeport-m1-thompson-wextras-20000-form-3/

 

I'm considering an M1 would like to hear any input; particular, the asking price ($20K) given

it's a "REWAT" with the barrel replaced. The pitting he discusses doesn't look too bad

to me. Note that the "asking price" for West Hurley M1's right now appears to be $16K

(from a dealer site, Gunbroker). On the other hand, Spiwak recently moved a Rewat M1

for quite a bit less (? $13K, seemed to sell in a day).

 

Thanks!

Edited February 6, 2016 by shadowman

[shadycon]

Looks pretty good!!

[huggytree]

saw this m1 posted this morning and thought $20k seems high(but most seem high these days w/ no one buying at the high price)

 

when you can get a 1928 for $23,999 from Spiwak that isnt a rewat and comes with a $850 value drum and $120 worth of 30 round mags it seems to make that rewat look over priced by thousands......

 

another big thing is what happens when you resell some day....its not going to be a popular gun, its going to take a while to sell

[shadowman]

another big thing is what happens when you resell some day....its not going to be a popular gun, its going to take a while to sell

 

I'm trying to understand, what is it about a "Rewat" that hurts the value so much? Although I'm not

buying it to make money per se, my impression is that some of the original WW2 guns are undervalued

by the market nowadays... at the least, this listed M1 looks like it would be a good shooter...

[huggytree]

would a car thats been in a semi major accident be worth the same as an original car w/o accidents?

 

ai have seen a few nice 1928's sell for $25-26k range in the past 2 months.....i saw one really nice colt sell for $36.5k 2,5 months ago........but otherwise i havent seen many sell in the past 2 months (not many listed either)....and now i see asking prices going into the high 20's and 1 on GB asking $38k(unfired?)......but no one is buying them....a nice bridgeport 1928 seems to sell at 25-26k......

 

value is what it is....if its selling for $25k then thats the value..market sets value...

 

im looking for a thompson too....i would not consider that dewat just for future resale......if you dont buy it, let see how long it sits....the only one i saw was on Spiwak a couple months back.....figure out what that one sold for and you will know the value of this one

 

if you have $20k to spend id look at the 1928 on Spiwak

 

there's a new one on GB today...original 1942 left over parts gun Bridgeport 1928ac....price is $27k(30k buy it now).......im watching to see if anyone bids............ive got my eye on this one but not for $27k + $550 for shipping/stamp

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=540142547

 

looks like a great $24k-24.5k (including stamp/shipping) gun to me though

Edited February 6, 2016 by huggytree

[DLansky]

it depends how it was deactivated and reactivated. if it was cut and re-welded, that is one story. if it simply had a plugged barrel that was replaced with a periodic authentic barrel, that is a different story. the former has a tremendous impact on value and possibly function, while the latter has little or no impact on either.

[shadowman]

would a car thats been in a semi major accident be worth the same as an original car w/o accidents?

 

No, however, I think this gun is a bit different; I know a car that's been in a major wreck just never can be fixed

quite right, and will be a source of major headaches down the road (I owned such a vehicle once...).

 

Looks to me like the barrel on this gun was plugged and then tack-welded in place (to prevent "easy" reactivation).

I wouldn't anticipate major functional issues, and "subgun accuracy" should be easy to achieve.

 

it depends how it was deactivated and reactivated. if it was cut and re-welded, that is one story. if it simply had a plugged barrel that was replaced with a periodic authentic barrel, that is a different story. the former has a tremendous impact on value and possibly function, while the latter has little or no impact on either.

 

That makes sense. BTW, now that I remember a little better, the ~$13K Spiwak M1 was in fact a Re-weld, not just a Rewat... big

difference, I think.

 

I see some pre-May sample M1's listed about $12-13K now, e.g.,

http://dealernfa.com/shop/thompson-m1a1-bridgeport-excellent-pre-may-628005/

 

And West Hurley M1's maybe $16K, e.g.,

http://www.nfasales.com/nfawp/weapons/ (*not selling very fast at that price).

 

Here's an M1A1 that's clearly a re-weld (see pics), with "buy it now" of $21K

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=539197819 (would be interesting to know the reserve price)

 

And I'm using Reuben's $27K as the "absolute max" price--

http://dealernfa.com/shop/thompson-m1-cr-bridgeport-156497/ (not moving)

 

So my bottom line, there's a price for this gun and I'm trying to figure out what it might be.... thanks for everyone's input!

[shadowman]

 

huggytree posted--

there's a new one on GB today...original 1942 left over parts gun Bridgeport 1928ac....price is $27k(30k buy it now).......im watching to see if anyone bids............ive got my eye on this one but not for $27k + $550 for shipping/stamp

http://www.gunbroker...?Item=540142547

looks like a great $24k-24.5k (including stamp/shipping) gun to me though

 

Thanks for the info, but the thing is, I already have a WW2 Savage 1928 pending; I wanted an M1 or M1A1 to round out

my collection a bit (*the fact that M1's generally run cheaper also makes the purchase a little easier).

 

If i add another Thompson (besides an M1), it'll have to be an original Colt 21 or 21/28.

[MrBill]

Anyone thinking about buying a rewat must examine the reciever very carefully. DLansky was dead on with barrel plug being not that big of a deal BUT a rewelded receiver?

[Black River Militaria CII]

I'll throw in my $.02 sInce I do a lot of reactivations of M1s and 1928s. For what it is worth, the quality of reactivations overall have improved a lot in the last twenty years due to the increasing value and the slowly closing gap between reacts and original guns. Also the knowledge and skill of the CIIs doing the work has improved measurably as well. M1s usually are breech welded with the barrel tacked to the receiver on the side of the receiver. Sometimes the boltface is filled with weld inicluding the extractor. However, there are a lot of them that also have a steel pin in a hole drilled through the tang of the grip holder into the breech of the barrel. Sometimes these pins are drill rod. Most that I have seen were done by import shops during the DEWAT retail burst in the middle fifties which show a consistent type of deactivation. Shops varied in their approach. Every once in a while a privateer job comes thorugh and they can be horrendous. Seems like once they felt the arc strike they just couldn't stop the fun!

So, the point is that the resulting reactivation depends entirely on the skill and willingness of the CII or individual doing the work to try return the gun to an unblemished state close to original. If this is accomplished, the value is only slightly disminished in my opinion. Usually M1s are parked after reactivation which is actually correct as military rehabs d parked. Sometimes a customer wants his gun finished in black oxide, which is the original finish. It is interesting that when people see a black oxide finish on an M1 they say that it isn't original since most are parked.

There are a lot of minor bits of damage to edges, sight installations, breech area disturbances from removing breech weld, etc and other places that don't get treated and then the reactivation sufferes somewhat, but buyers often overlook this stuff.

By no means are all reactivations equal.....

[huggytree]

--- It was originally a dewat with the barrel plugged and tack welded at the shoulder. The barrel was replaced so the only visible sign of being a previous dewat is a slight discoloration in the parkerizing at the right front corner of the receiver. ----

 

wouldnt that tack weld decrease the value...it will always have the DEWAT attached to it

[reconbob]

Black River's post is very informative. As he says some of these guns

had a hole drilled up thru the grip mount, the receiver thread, and the

barrel, AND the barrel was tack welded. The only way you would know

If this was done is to take the grip mount off which means you have

to take the barrel off and of course the seller would never do that. If

such a gun is expertly restored it's mechanically good as new - but

the receiver has a hole in the bottom thru the barrel thread. This

reduces the value. I don't know by how much but it's worth less

because it's no longer 100%.

These guns have become so valueable that people are going to

Great lengths to restore them. There was an M1 a while back that

had the sides machined to machine off pitting and was expertly

re-engraved. The seller described as "fully restored" and I think it

sold for about the same as a un-"restored" gun. The gun looked

absolutely perfect which is what gave it away but once it's got some

wear on it I am sure knowingly or unknowingly down the line it

will be sold as an all-original gun.

 

Bob

[huggytree]

im the least thompson expert here.....but for me it would be like buying a car with a SALAGE on the title......you can make a car look like new, but having REWAT on a guns paper work has to just kill the value.....and arent M1's in good condition typically $23k range.......Rueben has one for a very high price, but i wouldnt use his prices as a guide to where the high end of the market is.....he's often thousands above the market......(not always, but usually)

 

i think its worth below a hurley gun.....not $13,000.......but somewhere between $20k and $13k

 

resale,resale,resale.....it will always be a difficult sell unless you give a low price...this is why i wouldnt buy it

 

id wait for another M1....in the past 30-45 days there hasnt been much out there thompson wise......and the few that have been seem to be trying to push the thompson value up thousands to a new plateau.....and none are selling

[brazos609]

Bob may not remember, he's a pretty busy guy, but I had actually already talked to him about sending this gun in for him to pull the barrel and check it to see if there had previously been a pin in the bottom of the plugged barrel.

 

Wood tends to trap any moisture present so the current AOC grip mount had some pitting. I wanted him to replace the grip mount because I had a new old stock matte blued AOC grip mount I wanted him to parkerize and install.

 

Deactivated and reactivated war trophies are a huge part of the history of transferable machineguns and the hobby. They are not salvage but they are a little less valuable than an untouched original gun, just like a mismatched gun is a little less valuable than a numbers matching gun. A matching rewat is of equal value to a mismatched gun that had never been a dewat. If you think a think any Bridgeport is less valuable than a West Hurley you truly are the least knowledgeable "thopmson expert here."

 

I am fully willing and capable of pulling the barrel without leaving a single mark and in fact I just did. I was going to have Bob pull the barrel because I don't have the burners and pans fo finish work, to parkerize and blue parts. I was going to, and I am still going to, send this gun and my Savage 1928 to Bob to inspect and do some finish work. Here is a photo after I pulled the barrel and removed the grip mount. I can confirm now that there had been a pin below the barrel under the grip mount. The hole was welded up and milled flush with an end mill.

 

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu237/Brazos609/Mobile%20Uploads/20160207_091924_zpsycbvz95l.jpg

 

I have not tried to hide anything and I was upfront about this gun. Many sellers will not disclose at all that a gun has had work done on it. It was a dewat that was rewatted by having a new barrel installed and then parkerized. This was done before I bought it and this is all I was told before I bought it. It runs perfectly and is a great shooter.

 

I am going to send it to Bob this week with my Savage 1928 to have him parkerize the NOS AOC grip mount, inspect the gun, and install the grip mount and reinstall the barrel. The Savage, I'm going to have him install a new barrel and re-blue the receiver and trigger frame.

[huggytree]

ive seen hurleys sell into the low 20's now.....so your actually saying your gun is worth less than a hurley by asking $20k for it.....and you are correct i am the least knowledgeable.....i will never argue that.....im 4+ months into thompsons while most here are 10-20+ years into them

 

the only rewat i saw sell was from Spiwak and i know it sat for months and sold low

 

my experience is from 1 gun i saw....sorry i offended you....you are 110% correct about your being honest on the gun....most appear to hide the truth and avoid pics that make their guns look bad.

Edited February 7, 2016 by huggytree

[reconbob]

I am not saying that Rewats are not good, or not valuable - as long as they are

not rewelded/welded receivers. This is an interesting topic because lets say a true

original condition gun is 100%. What does that make a quality Rewat as we are

discussing here. 95%? 90%?

I think a lot of people don't care about these finer points. if the gun looks good

and shoots good and its Auto Ordnance on the Form 4 they don't get into the

details of what a "restoration" can be.

I would give one of these M1's with the formerly pinned barrel a 90+%. A gun

like the one I mentioned where it looked perfect because the sides had been machined

smooth and re-engraved - I'd give a gun like that maybe 75%...maybe less, even

though its looks perfect...

 

Bob

[Devil Dog 1110]

If this gun was not a rewat it would probably sell pretty quick for $23-$25K in my opinion.

If you only want to pay $13-$15K for it you should have bought it 3 years ago.

I think this is a great opportunity for someone to buy a WW II gun to shoot, enjoy and still expect it to appreciate over time.

The seller seems to have been very upfront in his description and if I was looking for an original M1 TSMG I'd be all over this gun.

 

 

My 2 cents

[buzz]

I personally wouldn't pay 90% for a rewat.

 

60% maybe, but not 90%.

 

 

The fact that these guns are so expensive is all the more reason to get an original gun.

 

I will gladly pay an extra 10% to get an original gun as opposed to one that had a hole drilled through the receiver and was filled with weld metal by some janitor with a sear welder.

[shadowman]

OK, from reading this thread, there's quite a bit of difference of opinion on the value of this gun. The

main objection being that the barrel (when it was a DEWAT) was drilled and pinned. However, from the

(admittedly little) I know about M1 Thompsons, this shouldn't really affect the function very much,

if at all (?)

 

I understand that it won't ever be worth what an "untouched" original M1 is worth, but as long as you

know that going in, you should do OK.

 

On another note-- I understand you can use the M1A1 internals in the M1; any reason to do this, or not

do this?

 

Thanks for everyone's input!

[bug]

The only different part is the bolt. The M1 has the hammer and movable firing pin while the A1 has a fixed pin. Some prefer one over the other for a host of reasons.

 

Bob D

Edited February 9, 2016 by bug

[shadycon]

My .02; I think brazos has been very honest with this gun and to me it seems he is trying to give someone a very fair opportunity to own a fine gun!! Would you jump on it if he had not said anything about it being rewalt and asked $25k or more just to be in the same ball park as a lot of others trying to rip folks off?

[huggytree]

I agree. It's great someone is honest about what he has

[wwiifirearms]

A related part of the REWAT value story is related to the question of "Marking". As I understand it when a CII REWAT's a gun today many ( maybe all) are marking/engraving the firearm with their name as manufacturer. I have heard it debated if non-CII people doing a REWAT are also required to engrave the firearm. I've also heard it questioned if a CII needs to engrave during reactivation.

When is it required to engrave a firearm already registered on the NFRTR under another manufacturer?

Does a REWAT engraved by a CII have less value than one that is not?

Edited February 11, 2016 by wwiifirearms

[shadowman]

Here's another "shooter" M1 Thompson listed on Gunbroker--

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=542117641

 

Started at $14,999.00, no reserve, and "Buy it Now" of $17,999.00

 

Refinished, not matching, and from the text of the ad also looks like it's

a REWAT.

 

But, there's a price where this gun sells...

 

 

 

[MrBill]

That gun is definitely a rewat. The four digit serial number is a dead give away. i too have a four digit serial number 28 Savage. ? How can this be possible? They were amnesty registered in November of 68. A FOIA will certainly confirm this.