Jump to content


Photo

WTK: Value of Very Rare MP40 C&R Gun ctxt...

MP40

  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 Haenelistklasse

Haenelistklasse

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 58 posts

Posted 01 December 2018 - 07:01 PM

Hello, I was wondering if I could pick the brains of some MP40 experts out there in Cyberland. I am seriously considering posting a want to trade ad for a rare MP40 I have. It is an early Haenel coded gun (122 40) that is 100% matching, 80-85% original finish with all the early rare features (square hook front site, slab side mag well, claw style cocking handle with original unmodified receiver). Matching parts are endcap, trigger guard, folding stock, receiver tube, rear site, sling ring, barrel, front site, resting bar (aluminum), magwell, bolt and firing pin. I have fired the gun once (200 rounds gingerly) but it really is too nice to shoot and kind of felt bad doing it. Ran like a champ though. I let one guy at the range fire a clip and he thought he was in heaven. It was fun to see the smile on his face  Anyway I talked to Alex Cruiming (mp40.nl) and he said that it is a very rare gun with only 6 in his database of 600 guns. I want to find someone that has a shooter grade C&R gun that they would trade me plus cash on their end since I am "trading down". I want to know what a fair trade price would be because I don't want to overprice it but I don't want to underprice it either. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Thank you Haenelistklasse


  • 0

#2 Robert Henley

Robert Henley

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 810 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:NRA Life Benefactor
    Unified Sportsmen of Florida

Posted 02 December 2018 - 06:34 AM

I think any C&R MP40 is going to cost at least $20K unless you stumble on a deal.  A nice all matching number one $25K, but could well go higher in an auction if there are multiple bidders.  With the hassle of at least two transfers (your gun and the one you trade for) it would be more trouble than it's worth IMO.  There's some information on this Board on a drop in replacement bolt, Grasshopper and others have posted about.  Even tube guns are $15K, which if you're only interested in a shooter rather than a collector might be something to consider although your C&R gun is going to be a better investment IMO.  Robert


  • 0

#3 Robert Henley

Robert Henley

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 810 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:NRA Life Benefactor
    Unified Sportsmen of Florida

Posted 02 December 2018 - 06:38 AM

Here's a recent post on the FBP replacement bolt: http://www.machinegu...showtopic=20377


  • 0

#4 Black River Militaria CII

Black River Militaria CII

    Industry Expert

  • Regular Group
  • 696 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 02 December 2018 - 10:12 AM

Your gun is quite interesting to me for a lot of reasons, one being that I often find myself trying to puzzle through how the market works for such examples. The pool of MGs eligible for privare possession is exceedingly small, so what value do anomalies have for any particular gun? Early MP40s that remain unmodified to the two piece safety and receiver cutout are unusual in tne US as registered MGs. Examples of the wide variety of variations from standard production, factory and field alterations, use of earlier manufactured parts in later guns, design experiments, markings, etc, etc are interesting, but with some exceptions, dont seem to really add much value. For collectors, these anomalies are interesting in the context of having lots of examples of variations. Unfortunately, currently and for many years now, collectors have been hobbled by the high cost of these guns and an effort to acquire a collection of examples that represents even a few of the many variations is about impossible. I have some acquaintances who have collections accumulated over many, many years with selections of variations of specific models of a partiuclar gun, purchased for pennies on the dollar comparred to the cost of these guns today.
Even within the small mumber of MPs that are registered for private possession in the US, there are lots of small differences that make the guns interesting in detail. Capitalizing on these details with seeking a higher value is difficult for several reasons. There are lots of remanufactured MPs that are far more affordable and are shooter grade. Vintage, C+R examples in shooter grade condition, which include quite a few of the registered guns, are also a lot more affordable, and often have interesting variant details. While cost is usually the principal filter for most buyers, in a word, condition really is the prime determinant of value within any catagory. Condition combines with other characteristics in very odd ways. Rarity, completeness, matching numbers, variants, etc, etc all factor in but condition, in my experience, is the key to high value. Catagory helps, too. On a broad popularity scale, in the US, German MGs seem to be the most popular with US near and then Brit. The variety of German MGs helps make them very attractive among other issues. So, MP40s and MP43/44 types are right at the top of this niche and examples in really pristine condition, which are few and far between, will bring significantly higher values. Add to that interesting variations on a gun from standard or aspects unusual in the pool of registered examples, then the variations take on real value. Best example I know of in the US for MP40s is the double mag MP40.
As the years go by, MG sellers are increasingly noting small details on their guns touting them as significant enhancers of value. Buyers become educated to these details and then they become a necessary part of the sales promotion of the gun. Often, in my opinion, these details are really not significant, and sometimes are rather humorous, and in my dealings with buyers and sellers of MGs it isnt clear whether these enhancements are producing any greater value in the sales price.
While I have not seen the condition of your gun, coupled with its early production state, it might be of greater value than I might appreciate, but I would observe that the maker produced 160,000 +/- 38s and 40s, second to Steyr. Relative to total Haenel production, the gun is hardly rare. At least in the larger picture. Alexs observation that six examples out of 600 have been identified is interesting but is that mumber specific to europe? Are there more similar examples registered in the US? That is the mumber that would be relevant, but there is currently no way to know. A small number of examples in the pool available for private possession in the US might make the guns attributes more valuable one would hope, but that requires a buyer who will appreciate these details. In my opinion, if the condition of the gun is pristine, then the alleged attribute of rarity has greater impact. If the condition is less, then that factor isnt as influential.
It would be interesting to know after you make a deal, how important were the early characteristics, aside from condition, to the buyer? And if the buyer was willing to pay more for those details.
Would be nice to see some pics if you have time.
Good luck.

Edited by Black River Militaria CII, 02 December 2018 - 02:05 PM.

  • 0

#5 Haenelistklasse

Haenelistklasse

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 58 posts

Posted 02 December 2018 - 05:47 PM

Here's a recent post on the FBP replacement bolt: http://www.machinegu...showtopic=20377

 

I think any C&R MP40 is going to cost at least $20K unless you stumble on a deal.  A nice all matching number one $25K, but could well go higher in an auction if there are multiple bidders.  With the hassle of at least two transfers (your gun and the one you trade for) it would be more trouble than it's worth IMO.  There's some information on this Board on a drop in replacement bolt, Grasshopper and others have posted about.  Even tube guns are $15K, which if you're only interested in a shooter rather than a collector might be something to consider although your C&R gun is going to be a better investment IMO.  Robert

I was thinking about the same price as you but in an auction with two or more guys that want it who knows? I was thinking about the two transfers but I guess it is what it is if I decide to post an ad. Still mulling it over. To be honest, it really is not an investment for me. It is more of an investment in fun. I do know that it is a very rare gun and had that confirmed on the subguns board by a long time dealer. I actually did have a tube gun (Erb) and traded into a C&R gun that was amnesty registered by Hank Williams Jr. in 1968. It has been sent to Bubba at Black River Militaria to be worked on. He is checking the trigger, putting in an original sear, putting on a ribbed magwell and totally refinishing the gun. That gun is my shooter gun. Take care, Haenelistklasse


  • 0

#6 Speeddemon02

Speeddemon02

    RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 283 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Mexico
  • Interests:Guns, Trucks, Games, and Woodworking

Posted 02 December 2018 - 05:54 PM

You might be better selling this standalone and acquiring another in a separate transaction.  Might be an issue getting a buyer willing to pay for your MP40 that also has a shooter grade MP40 for trade.


  • 0

#7 Haenelistklasse

Haenelistklasse

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 58 posts

Posted 02 December 2018 - 06:07 PM

Your gun is quite interesting to me for a lot of reasons, one being that I often find myself trying to puzzle through how the market works for such examples. The pool of MGs eligible for privare possession is exceedingly small, so what value do anomalies have for any particular gun? Early MP40s that remain unmodified to the two piece safety and receiver cutout are unusual in tne US as registered MGs. Examples of the wide variety of variations from standard production, factory and field alterations, use of earlier manufactured parts in later guns, design experiments, markings, etc, etc are interesting, but with some exceptions, dont seem to really add much value. For collectors, these anomalies are interesting in the context of having lots of examples of variations. Unfortunately, currently and for many years now, collectors have been hobbled by the high cost of these guns and an effort to acquire a collection of examples that represents even a few of the many variations is about impossible. I have some acquaintances who have collections accumulated over many, many years with selections of variations of specific models of a partiuclar gun, purchased for pennies on the dollar comparred to the cost of these guns today.
Even within the small mumber of MPs that are registered for private possession in the US, there are lots of small differences that make the guns interesting in detail. Capitalizing on these details with seeking a higher value is difficult for several reasons. There are lots of remanufactured MPs that are far more affordable and are shooter grade. Vintage, C+R examples in shooter grade condition, which include quite a few of the registered guns, are also a lot more affordable, and often have interesting variant details. While cost is usually the principal filter for most buyers, in a word, condition really is the prime determinant of value within any catagory. Condition combines with other characteristics in very odd ways. Rarity, completeness, matching numbers, variants, etc, etc all factor in but condition, in my experience, is the key to high value. Catagory helps, too. On a broad popularity scale, in the US, German MGs seem to be the most popular with US near and then Brit. The variety of German MGs helps make them very attractive among other issues. So, MP40s and MP43/44 types are right at the top of this niche and examples in really pristine condition, which are few and far between, will bring significantly higher values. Add to that interesting variations on a gun from standard or aspects unusual in the pool of registered examples, then the variations take on real value. Best example I know of in the US for MP40s is the double mag MP40.
As the years go by, MG sellers are increasingly noting small details on their guns touting them as significant enhancers of value. Buyers become educated to these details and then they become a necessary part of the sales promotion of the gun. Often, in my opinion, these details are really not significant, and sometimes are rather humorous, and in my dealings with buyers and sellers of MGs it isnt clear whether these enhancements are producing any greater value in the sales price.
While I have not seen the condition of your gun, coupled with its early production state, it might be of greater value than I might appreciate, but I would observe that the maker produced 160,000 +/- 38s and 40s, second to Steyr. Relative to total Haenel production, the gun is hardly rare. At least in the larger picture. Alexs observation that six examples out of 600 have been identified is interesting but is that mumber specific to europe? Are there more similar examples registered in the US? That is the mumber that would be relevant, but there is currently no way to know. A small number of examples in the pool available for private possession in the US might make the guns attributes more valuable one would hope, but that requires a buyer who will appreciate these details. In my opinion, if the condition of the gun is pristine, then the alleged attribute of rarity has greater impact. If the condition is less, then that factor isnt as influential.
It would be interesting to know after you make a deal, how important were the early characteristics, aside from condition, to the buyer? And if the buyer was willing to pay more for those details.
Would be nice to see some pics if you have time.
Good luck.

 

Bubba, thank you very much for all of your cool and interesting observations. It is always nice to hear from an expert. The gun is by no means pristine. I would say conservatively 80% but maybe even 85%. It has three waffenampt stamps on the barrel all coded 37 so it was test fired and proofed at least that many times. It also has the mm number on the top of the barrel. I think 8,35 if memory serves. Another really weird feature of this gun is it has a capital "E" stamped right on the top of the receiver. It looks like it was done at the factory and Alex Cruiming said he never heard of such a thing but it is there plain as day. The serial number is early 2xxxa plus it has an IRS serial on the endcap and on the tube I think. Perhaps I am mistaken and it is not worth a premium since it is by no means in top condition and if it is not I think I would keep it because to be honest it is neat as hell even though I do prefer the ribbed magwell and the push button cocking handle. I will try to take some pics of it but don't know how to post but if you want I can send a few to your private email if you are interested. Again, thanks for your insight and opinions. They are always appreciated. Take care, Haenelistklasse


  • 0

#8 Haenelistklasse

Haenelistklasse

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 58 posts

Posted 02 December 2018 - 06:19 PM

You might be better selling this standalone and acquiring another in a separate transaction.  Might be an issue getting a buyer willing to pay for your MP40 that also has a shooter grade MP40 for trade.

 

I think that you are probably correct. The guy that has a shooter gun may not want to pay the extra for what really is an advanced collector piece. The gun really is for a guy that wants a rare variation in his collection and already has most of them. Really a guy like Alex Cruiming (mp40.nl). He told me he has 6 or 7 MP40's, an MP38 and an MP41 that is an advanced collector but he said he is jealous because he is missing this variation haha


  • 0

#9 Robert Henley

Robert Henley

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 810 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:NRA Life Benefactor
    Unified Sportsmen of Florida

Posted 02 December 2018 - 06:47 PM

I don't know the seller, but here's a nice looking Wilson tube gun that sold pretty quickly:

 

http://www.sturmgewe...lson-on-form-3/

 

$14,750 asking price.


  • 0

#10 Robert Henley

Robert Henley

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 810 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida
  • Interests:NRA Life Benefactor
    Unified Sportsmen of Florida

Posted 02 December 2018 - 06:55 PM

Ruben also has a couple of C&R MP-40s:

 

http://www.sturmgewe...cr-90-matching/

 

http://www.sturmgewe...cr-80-matching/

 

$22,995 and $21,995, respectively.  The guns look pretty good.


  • 0

#11 Black River Militaria CII

Black River Militaria CII

    Industry Expert

  • Regular Group
  • 696 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 04 December 2018 - 09:54 AM

Given the interest in this particular early MP40 and the question of its relative rarity, from perusing my records of MP40s that I have had in the shop over many years, there have been seven that were noted as early guns dated 40 with a variety of traits. Five were Haenel and the other two might have been but I didnt note their makers. From what I can tell from what I recorded, four had slab magwells and the others had ribbed. Two had early cocking handles with the bolts numbered to the receivers onie of which was cut for the two piece safety handle. Several had the early style front sight mount with the muzzle cap retainer. All were C+R examples in good to very good or better condition with varying condition bores, nicks, scratches and other common afflictions. Five of the seven were here for reactivations.
I just finished work on another early exmaple that had the matched early handle both to a receiver that was cut for the two piece handle.
Also just recieved a 40 dated Steyr example with slab magwell, two piece handle and muzzle cap fisture okn front sight mount.
Since the late 1980s several dozen MP40s or more have been through my shop, not counting the ones belonging ro me, not lot of these guns in the big picture but enough to have significant exposure to them, and I continue to have them come in for reactivations, repairs, etc, etc today. There are seven here now for attention.
While these 40 dated guns are rare as all registered MGs are rare, I dont feel that their rarity is particularily exceptional given that there are
so many with anomalies in their make up. Presently I own five including an MP38 and they are all different, but hardly representative of the very wide variety of guns many of which have unique characteristics that are different than standard or have unique markings and stamps, etc, etc.
The early MP40 under discussion in this thread is a nice example, not pristine apparently, but worthy of some increase in value for the usual attributes that increase collector value, but that extra value has to be sought and appreciated by the buyer for it to be realized. FWIW
There are truly unique MP40s out there and even in the US liKe the twin mag experiment.

Edited by Black River Militaria CII, 04 December 2018 - 11:26 AM.

  • 0

#12 colt21a

colt21a

    Respected Member

  • Regular Group
  • 3761 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:gone
  • Interests:nothing

Posted 09 December 2018 - 04:20 PM

brmc said it well.the dual mag MP-40 or the MP-36. And we know one of the duals was made post 1945 anyhow.all good stuff.RON K.


  • 0

#13 huggytree

huggytree

    Long Time RKI Member

  • Regular Group
  • 2319 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:WI
  • Interests:Fast cars, Guns, Work

Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:55 PM

All matching w a nice finish. 1940 model unmodified. I think $25,000 range. Want to sell it quick $23,000. Sell eventually $25,000.

Without pics its hard to say. The market is horrible right now for most FA. Its a buyers market. Ruben is dropping his prices. Frank mwt is putting guns on GB again with 0 reserve

The mp40 might still have a decent market. A forum member bought that $14,750 Wilson. He was partially tired of looking is why it sold fast. The price was over market price and he knew it and accepted it

Id toss it on Sturm for $25 and see what offers you get

I have not seen an 85% all matching gun for sale. The few Ive seen are 40-50%. Most arent all matching

Edited by huggytree, 11 December 2018 - 09:57 PM.

  • 0

#14 Annihilator

Annihilator

    Long Time Member

  • Board Donor
  • 165 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 December 2018 - 02:14 PM

Here is mine, all matching numbers, original finish

Attached Files


  • 0

#15 av8tr

av8tr

    RKI Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 169 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee

Posted Yesterday, 10:09 AM

And mine.  3 digit serial number, no suffix.

 

Attached File  pix99334437.jpg   15.85K   13 downloadsAttached File  pix99334656.jpg   27.09K   13 downloads

Attached Files


  • 0

#16 TSMGguy

TSMGguy

    Respected Member

  • Board Benefactor
  • 2351 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West of the Pecos, Texas
  • Interests:Motorcycles, old airplanes, and guns.

Posted Today, 09:26 AM

Haenelistklasse, Would you have any interest in a nice all matching BNZ 41, in partial trade? PM me.

 

That said, the only place to maximize your sales price is at auction. All you'll get here is opinions from those of us (including myself) who have no money on the table. 


  • 0

#17 Haenelistklasse

Haenelistklasse

    Member

  • Regular Group
  • 58 posts

Posted Today, 01:58 PM

Hi TSMGguy, I just sent you a PM. Let me know what you think. Haenelistklasse


  • 0





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: MP40