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Winston Churchill's Thompson - Supposedly


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So I went to a museum here today in Essex where I live in England who have said they have what is more than likely the Thompson that Winston Churchill held in a photograph during ww2

 

Here's some pics of it and a few of the other thompsons in there, think there were 3 1928 thompsons stamped Tommy gun

 

The m1a1 at the bottom was a very shiny black which I'm guessing wasn't original

 

The Winston Churchill one is second from the top I'm curious to see what holes you guys can pick in it

 

Sorry for the poor quality of some pics it was difficult with them being behind glass

 

 

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Very interesting, thanks for sharing! I see the top 28 has a M1 front sight. I wonder if there is threads underneath it.

Andrew

could the top one possibly be a Thompson 1921? did the British order any 1921s?
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The top 2 are both colts, from what I've found out 200 Colt thompsons were brought over to England made up of spare parts in the Colt factory apparently, the second one down was found somewhere in England in some sort of place that had something to do with winston Churchill i think, the hole drilled in it I have no idea about but the finish on both of the guns didn't look overally great but you could see they were blued but both looked as though they had seen plenty of use
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The top 2 are both colts, from what I've found out 200 Colt thompsons were brought over to England made up of spare parts in the Colt factory apparently, the second one down was found somewhere in England in some sort of place that had something to do with winston Churchill i think, the hole drilled in it I have no idea about but the finish on both of the guns didn't look overally great but you could see they were blued but both looked as though they had seen plenty of use

I kind of thought that the top ones were Colt's judging by the grips. Does the top ones placard say 1928?

 

Very interesting though.

 

Andrew

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Nick,

One of these days I'll find time to viist that museum.

 

The subject of 'Churchills Thompson' has been covered in a prevous post on the forum:

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17181&hl=%2Bwinston+%2Bchurchill&do=findComment&comment=144630

 

Are you sure those Thompsons are Colts, the initial Savage guns also had the NY address.

Below is my Colt Model of 1921 with NY address and my early Savage 1928 with NY address, notice the subtitle difference.

594 AO Ny Ny address.JPG 18344 NY address.JPG

All the Colt Thompsons also had Patent dates, as did some early Savage 1928's, not patent numbers.

594 Patent Dates.JPG 18344 Patent dates.JPG

The story of the early Savage 1928A's is in Tom Davis's book "Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story", well worth reading, excellent book with some great research.

Stay safe

​Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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The top one is probably No. S-17359, which is what started us off doing the book in the first place.

 

Evening James,

indeed,I just read the notice next to the 1928A in the picture and it is S-17359.

 

 

Stay safe

 

Richard

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Nick,

Indeed it would, that is the trouble with museum displays.

 

We all live and learn though, I have been on a learning curve since discovering this forum.

 

I recommend you buy "Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story" though, the information contained within is well researched and a very interesting tale, I could not put it down!

 

Stay safe

Richard

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I have to agree that it would be nice to see the other side of them, just out of curiosity are all the guns in British museums deactivated? I noticed the bolt on the second one down isn't all the way forward and I was wondering if it's deactivated or there is something in the chamber keeping it from closing Edited by 1952HRA
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Oh I didn't know that Richard I thought if the reciever had New York stamped on it that it was a Colt made one, if only I could have seen the other side of the gun I guess it would have helped a lot

I was thinking it would be nice to see both sides. And now that I think about it, I seem to recall that the British did request some 1928s without compensators.

 

The top grip threw me off a bit since it looks like a Colt grip, but I guess anything is possible with swapped wood or other parts.

 

Andrew

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I'll have to get that book ordered Richard I keep forgetting to, looking at every gun in the museum I didn't see a single one with signs of deactivation, the thompsons usually have the barrel cut underneath and I couldn't see this on the Churchill one but they may have deactivated it the same way I've seen done to some really old spec deacs because of what it is, some really old spec deacs I've seen just had the barrels bored out and firing pins removed or welded in place
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The top 2 are both colts, from what I've found out 200 Colt thompsons were brought over to England made up of spare parts in the Colt factory apparently, the second one down was found somewhere in England in some sort of place that had something to do with winston Churchill i think, the hole drilled in it I have no idea about but the finish on both of the guns didn't look overally great but you could see they were blued but both looked as though they had seen plenty of use

 

There is a reference to Colt TSMGs being supplied to American volunteers fighting for the British. Not sure about these examples coming from Colt Patent Fire Arms Mfg. Co. as Auto-Ordnance Corporation had possession of all things TSMG once Colt produced the original 15,000 examples in 1922. If spare parts were used, it is a wonder that so many receivers and parts were found in the crates George Numrich purchased in 1951, but did not open all of them until 1967.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20475&hl=

 

From:

Charles G. Tubbs, editor [ 1st American Squadron, Home Guard (London); Brigadier-General Wade Hampton Hayes (1879-1956), officer commanding

 

"After some difficulties over its status and that of its members, and with the disapproval of American Ambassador Joseph Kennedy, the unit was formed in London in June 1940, with Brigadier-General Wade Hampton Hayes (1879-1956) as commanding officer. After some string-pulling by Charles Sweeny, the Thompson Company in America contributed 100 Tommy Guns and 100,000 rounds of ammunition, and members contributed their cars, painted in camouflage at their own expense. Dickon is at pains to stress that the squadron was 'not a thing just of vanity and good intentions by wealthy Americans', but rather a 'well-organized participant in training exercises for Home Guard units'. In January 1941 Churchill, as part of his effort to influence American public opinion, gave the squadron a special review in St James's Park, and in the months that followed the new American Ambassador John G. Winant proved far more sympathetic than his predecessor. Membership appears to have waned as America's involvement in the war drew men to active units."

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The top 2 are both colts, from what I've found out 200 Colt thompsons were brought over to England made up of spare parts in the Colt factory apparently, the second one down was found somewhere in England in some sort of place that had something to do with winston Churchill i think, the hole drilled in it I have no idea about but the finish on both of the guns didn't look overally great but you could see they were blued but both looked as though they had seen plenty of use

 

There is a reference to Colt TSMGs being supplied to American volunteers fighting for the British. Not sure about these examples coming from Colt Patent Fire Arms Mfg. Co. as Auto-Ordnance Corporation had possession of all things TSMG once Colt produced the original 15,000 examples in 1922. If spare parts were used, it is a wonder that so many receivers and parts were found in the crates George Numrich purchased in 1951, but did not open all of them until 1967.

 

http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20475&hl=

 

From:

Charles G. Tubbs, editor [ 1st American Squadron, Home Guard (London); Brigadier-General Wade Hampton Hayes (1879-1956), officer commanding

 

>"After some difficulties over its status and that of its members, and with the disapproval of American Ambassador Joseph Kennedy, the unit was formed in London in June 1940, with Brigadier-General Wade Hampton Hayes (1879-1956) as commanding officer. After some string-pulling by Charles Sweeny, the Thompson Company in America contributed 100 Tommy Guns and 100,000 rounds of ammunition, and members contributed their cars, painted in camouflage at their own expense. Dickon is at pains to stress that the squadron was 'not a thing just of vanity and good intentions by wealthy Americans', but rather a 'well-organized participant in training exercises for Home Guard units'. In January 1941 Churchill, as part of his effort to influence American public opinion, gave the squadron a special review in St James's Park, and in the months that followed the new American Ambassador John G. Winant proved far more sympathetic than his predecessor. Membership appears to have waned as America's involvement in the war drew men to active units."

 

 

Indeed there were a number of Colt Thompsons delivered to Europe in 1940, 500 to Sweden and 3,000 to France, and as I learned from Toms book, there were a number of 1921's in UK service, which had been 'begged & borrowed'. A number also came as a result of the 2nd French contract for the first 3,000 Savage guns, "The first 3,000 Savage Model of 1928s were to meet the second French order for Thompsons placed in March 1940, which was never delivered due to the Armistice of 22 June 1940. The British took over all of Frances, American Contracts, following 22nd June, to avoid ‘war material’ continuing to be delivered to France and falling into German hands. It is recorded that 1,150 of the French Contract Savage Model of 1928s were amongst the ‘war materials’ delivered to Britain. The remainder of the contract, 1,850 Model of 1928s, was cancelled, once the British had negotiated a penalty from Auto-Ordnance for not meeting the schedule for delivery of the French contract. As a penalty, Auto-Ordnance provided, free of charge, 149 new Savage Model 1928’s and 40 refurbished Colt Thompsons."

 

​Stay safe

 

​Richard

 

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Much of the stuff in that museum has been deactivated, to varying (and in some cases not-too-difficult-to-reverse) standards over the years, that was the basis on which COD Donington retained it unofficially.

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Nick-England,

It is difficult to address all the mis-information in your posts because you have been reading undocumented stories or posting about word of mouth accounts passed around by many uninformed people who talk about the Thompson gun. I am very disappointed in the placard beside S-17359 that indicates this early SAVAGE Thompson was made up of "spare parts." This statement is pure CRAP. S-17359 is a regular production Savage Thompson in the 17,000 serial number range manufactured in "A" or without compensator configuration. That and that alone makes this early Savage Thompson gun very special. S-17359 is also not the lowest serial numbered Thompson gun imported into Great Britain during the cash-and-carry period of World War II. Savage Thompsons from the 15,000 serial number range were the earliest guns imported. The number of Colt's guns is very very small, statistically insignificant.

 

Using the above museum mis-statement about parts guns as an example, can you name anyone in Great Britain in 1940 that would have had enough knowledge to know if the first shipment of 180 complete working Thompson guns were assembled from spare parts. Since Great Britain was in desperate need of submachine guns in late 1939, why would anyone in the military care or who would have the experience to know about the pedigree of the parts - if the guns worked. And work they did! Prior to January of 1940, all the parts would have been of Colt's manufacture. Savage guns did not roll off the assembly line until April of 1940 and early Savage parts were near the cosmetic quality of the Colt's era parts. So where does that type of information come from. No one knows. But it has been stated as fact for so long that it is now accepted as fact when it makes little sense.

 

I encourage you to obtain a copy of Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story. Every word in the book supported by a document written long ago, a recorded meeting or some other type of irrefutable proof. Mk VII's research at the National Archives is without equal. Everything I publish is documented and written to stand the test of time. GB-TTGS is the authority on this subject, bar none. As Mk VII alluded to, the story about S-17359 is what started the process that eventually led to the book. More information about the Savage Model of 1928A Thompson and S-17359 can be found in a back issue of Small Arms Review magazine. I also address the number of Colt's Thompson used by the British military in GB-TTGS. I seem to remember the information Arthur cited above, but don't believe it is included because I could not determine the pedigree of the Thompson guns. After the Swedish order of 500 Colt's guns in January 1940, the number of Colt's remaining in inventory would have been very small. This too is addressed in the book.

 

I would be very interested in your thoughts after reading GB-TTGS.

 

All good stuff!!!

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To your average person walking into the museum it may not matter, but it is still misinformation. Apparently the museum doesn't know enough about them either. Nick- I would suggest that maybe next time you are there you could mention it to someone working for the museum.

 

I have been with a relative in Ohio when we noticed a large map showing wartime boundaries (can't remember what war) on which one small portion was incorrect. Needless to say, he mentioned it to one of the staff and it is now corrected.

 

Andrew

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The date given for the begining of M1A1 production is slightly out too, "Produced from 1939 onwards, the M1A1 is a simplified version of the 1928 Model."

 

Stay safe

Richard

Edited by rpbcps
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Td I take your word as bible I think you know more than anyone from what I can tell so far about thompsons, I only know what I've found when doing a bit of digging online and seeing what was in the museum so I'm sorry if anything I've said is incorrect which looks like all of it lol, the only reason I thought they were colts was because they looked to have a more blued than blacked or parkerised finish on the receivers and the New York stamped on them which I originally thought only colts had and the cocking handle which looked like a Colt one but have since now found out was wrong as mentioned above about the New York being stamped on early savage guns and the same cocking handle being used on Tommy gun stamped thompsons, i think from what you've said above there is more than enough evidence to prove that this isn't the Thompson Winston Churchill used in the picture of him holding one, I'm still very curious as to where the museum found it and got their information from though, I definitely need to order that book though shall get it on order tomorrow, I really enjoy finding out more and more about these guns
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Some photos of British troops with 1928A's and page from British Army Small Arms Training Pamphlet No.21.

 

SAT Pam 21.jpg

 

Home Guard.

Smooth Barrel HG.jpg

 

Commando training

3 Commando-in-training 28 SB.jpg

 

Still from British Pathe Film on Lofoten raid in Norway in 1940.

cmd_norge.jpg

 

A few 1928A's in this line up.

1928 BSA 1941.jpg

 

Stay safe

Richard

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Nick,

I appreciate the kind words. I really believe you will be pleasantly surprised when reading my book. All the information is self-authenticated or footnoted so you will know the source documentation, something not found in most publications or Internet postings. After reading, please share your thoughts with me and the members of the Board.

 

Best,

TD.

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