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M3 Finish Issues


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I have a contract to purchase a C&R M3 (actually a 1 owner gun from since 1964). It is a lend lease gun with the bar over the mag catch. It was painted black at some time (I assume in British service). It is mechanically quite good. Unfortunately, the owner stuck bow camo tape on it some time ago. The tape is stuck on and I am not sure how to get it off. When I get the gun, I will be faced with a couple choices: 1) Take the tape off somehow without ruining the underlying finish and leave it like that; 2) remove the tape and refinish in black; and 3) remove the finish and parkerize. I would like some input including any opinions as to how to get the tape off without removing the black paint underneath. When you look at the pictures, you will see some trench art cut into the paint. That is original as received by the owner in 1964. It may be interesting to preserve that.

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Man, that is one fugly gun. FWIW, if that thing found it's way to my doorstep I would strip the camo tape and black paint off of it and then evaluate what's left. If I could live with the remains of the Parked finish, it would stay. Otherwise, it's off to the Parking tank!

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The flowery style of engraving on the sides and the "camo" suggests to me the this M3 spent some time in Africa with some sort of para-military, milita or guerilla outfit. Quite a few years ago I spent a few weeks in the Century Arms bonded warehouse cutting up MGs for import. At the time there were many large wooden crates with 4000 HK G3s in them that had come from central Africa, probably the Congo, Angola, Namibia, Botswana, etc, that were being stripped of parts for rebuilding into semis, etc, etc. These guns looked like they had been through the Sesame Street art studios with bright multicolored slings, and hangers, all sorts of jailhouse style of nail or knife tip engraved patterns on the stocks and sides of the receivers, colored fabric windings on the forestocks, various colors of paint on the receivers and barrels, stocks and forestocks.

If it has the usual Brit proofs and acceptance stamps on it and is clearly a lend-lease example, my suggestion would be to bead it and repaint it with black enamel, which would be the correct finish on it rather than duracoat, or any baked on finishes. Or if you feel that it needs to look like most other M3s, bead and park it.

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DZ,

Very interesting M3.

You could remove the paint with chemicals or glass beading and paint with "Rustoleum" flat black stove paint and it would look like everyone else's British grease gun.

No point in Parkerizing it since the mag catch guard identifies it as a British gun. So black paint is the way to go.

Or you could leave it as is and enjoy. If Black River Bob is correct, your gun could have an interesting history well after WW2.

When you go to your gun club don't be surprised if the other members walk past the Thompsons to look at your historic M3

Congratulation.

Jim C

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DZ,

To restore it back to Guide Lamp days the mag catch guard would need to be removed and the weld ground down flush, without touching the serial number.

Any pitting caused by the welding would have to be filled in.

It would need to have the missing letters restamped precisely like original.

If parkerized in a light shade the heat from the welding would show.

You would probably be better off selling it and buying one your happy with.

Don't pay too much attention to the detractors, Roscoe doesn't like M3s and the rest may be envious.

Jim C

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Annealing the sheet metal after welding deals with the discoloration possible from parkerizing. I'd leave it alone for the time being, take it out to the range, take it to shows, let others see it, shoot it and appreciate it for its uniqueness. Interarmco imported tons of odd stuff back post war and this gun has a legitimate and very interesting provenance. Anyone can show up with a standard M3 or A1 or a Brit lend-lease guns, but that's the only one I've ever seen in such a weird and fascinating condition. Seen a lot of them, too…..

You can get it 'restored' at any time but you can't go back…. 8^)

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I'd strip it and you may find the engraving doesn't go past the paint/tape. It if does a new lower is fairly cheap. or try bead blasting it out first at that stage. I'd park it and leave it there unless you are committed to the black color, but you can always do that later and it's preferred to do it over the park anyhow. On a gun like that I'd use black spray paint and never a baked on finish as those need to be bead blasted off and multiple blastings over time will one day destroy the gun. For resale the painted guns have always taken a little longer to sell than parked guns. I'd probably leave the mag release the way it is and try to preserve any brit proof marks (which you should see after a good aircraft paint stripper application/s). If you get on it with a bead blaster right away you may wash away some history?

 

Virtually anyone can repark that, so pick someone close and do it same day. You don't need professional restoration on a grease gun, you can take it to a furniture stripping place then to a park job monkey and it will turn out fine. LOTS of guys park stuff, ask around at a gun show in your area. Or get it stripped first and post some pics and you'll get better advice once we can see what's under the paint? You never ever want to ship any MG if you can at all avoid it.

 

Underneath there is a nice gun that probably a lot of guys overlooked, while to me it's a few hours and a few hundred dollars away from nice.

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I think it is fair to point out that no reputable gunsmiths that I know use heavy grit bead blast media on firearms, such as Black Beauty or equivalent, but for prep for parkerizing, medium glass beads works perfectly which does not remove metal or affect even very light stamping, electro-pencil or etching. Having used medium and light beads for many years, on hundreds guns, there is absolutely no worry about damaging the metal or any imprints.

As for the local hobby guy in his garage doing the work, that is not especially good advice, in my opinion. If he has had a lot of experience with prep work and parkerizing, and you can see his product, that would help. Careful prep is essential, and of course parkerizing is forgiving, but finishes can come out mottled, spotty, thin, or with other anomalies. At least a park job that isn't very good can be painted over, if your choice is to return it to Brit specs. If your effort is to improve the value of your gun and leave it parkerized, and are seeking a high quality restoration, use an accomplished parkerizing shop.

With all due respect, I doubt that johnson41 would take his M41 to the local hobbiest to be parked. I know I wouldn't take mine to the local guy up the hill whose work is sub-par even thigh he is a friend of mine. Of course, maybe johnson41 knows a really good local park hobbiest…..

Grease guns are expensive collector MGs, as you know, and when you go to sell it, you will be, or should be, questioned by the buyer about everything you know about its history while in your hands or anything else that you know of that has has happened to that gun. Everything that detracts from its originality detracts from the price, and your gun is starting a ways back in the scheme of things. So, in my opinion, if the best restoration possible is your intent, it is clearly in your favor not to take shortcuts that a knowledgeable buyer will be able to see. FWIW

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With respect to restoration, my inclination would be to remove the tape and see how much finish is left. If I were to refinish it, I would do so as a lend lease gun since that is part of its history. I don't see myself attempting to take it back to its original pre British configuration.
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I have been working on restoring my M3 back to the British spec as it had the magazine release "bar" welded on then removed at some point in its life leaving 2 ugly "tits" as I called them. Now all I have to do is refinish it with black paint as I had to replace the original barrel, leaving me with a park'd barrel on a black gun.

 

In my opinion, guns that have had the "bar" removed look terrible as the markings are half gone and can never be replaced. It seems to be a trend that guns without the bar ever being added command a higher price than those that have had it removed. M3's with the "bar" still intact fall in the middle.

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I have an M3 Greasegun that was a Lend-Lease gun. When I first laid eyes on it, it had that British black paint finish, which itself was nicked and worn. I had the dealer strip the paint and reparkerize it, before I even took possession of the gun. It looks practically new.

 

I don't think that removing British black paint and reparkerizing reduces the value of a Greasegun, provided all the markings are kept intact.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Actually I've done just that with a M3 specifically. What I've found is newer guys follow the instructions to a tee since they don't know any better. I oversee any prep work and do most of that myself since gunsmiths know little if anything about chemistry and lots can go wrong. Of course I always look at what came out of the tank last to make sure they have some clue and all is well with the setup so no I don't just drop stuff off on the porch with a sticky note on it, there is some diligence involved with everything I do. I'm not the total idiot I may appear to be?

 

I see some old guys, "major names in the industry" home brewing park solutions, not maintaining their tanks/ solutions, etc. and have long ago tossed the instructions and run by "feel or look". That's not how chemistry works. I was at another local guy last week and he was "re-doing" 15 guns that were parked by a guy that builds at least 150 parked guns a year. He's not the only one, I've seen lots of it over the years as well as finishes failing in the field months down the road. I'd love to park here myself, but the volume is too low and there are lots of guys close by set up that do good work for cheap, so I limit finishing here to what we can't get done elsewhere economically like hot bluing 60" 45# parts. Physically and chemically challenging in a t-shirt :o.

 

So how's this project going anyhow? Any new pics?

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No new pics. However, if anyone is interested in seeing a Lend Lease M3 that has had the bar removed and been reparkerized, there is one for sale on Sturmgewehr.com. This gun is interesting to me because it was likely built the same day and was shipped to Britain at the same time as mine. They are only about 200 apart in serial number. Whether I parkerize or paint my M3 (provided I get it), I will not be removing the bar. I think it looks like crap.

 

Dan

post-259934-0-22999900-1455549506_thumb.jpg

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That is why I welded a new bar on my M3GG that was sent overseas. Mine still had the two "tits" from where they used a hacksaw and cut the bar off so they could replace it with the regular magazine release guard. I have seen several like that one and to me they are worth less than one with the bar on it as part of the lettering is gone.

 

I'd be curious to know what serial numbers shipped when. My gun is a 1944 with a serial number in the low 180,XXX's.

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If your gun is in the 180,xxx and these two are 186,xxx, I would bet they were built really close in date. They may have been on the same ship headed to England. I don't know the production rate of the M3 but it had to be at least as high as the TSMG. My email address is dan@dzelenkalaw.com I would appreciate if you would send me some photographs of your gun. I am collecting a few for personal reference purposes.

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I sent you some pictures from my phone. They will show up as a Verizon number in your email. I included pictures of before and after I added the bar back over the magazine release. I will be refinishing it once the weather warms up. I would still like to find a British proof marked barrel for it.

Edited by Got Uzi
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